[kenberg]

OK, I'm slow to change. I still drive a stick shift. But even glaciers melt (a little faster these days). A partner wants to play kickback. I give you an auction.


1♦ Pass 1♥ 1♠
2♣ Pass 2♠ Pass
3♦ Pass 4♦ Pass


OK, here we are with diamonds as presumed trump. With this current partner, we are not playing kickback Suppose we were. Which is now Kickback, 4♥ or 4♠? Opener presumably does not have three hearts but might have, say, Kx and wish to show it, true? But partner might also have a spade control and wish to show it, true? So how does it go? Once there has been a raise, even a somewhat mild raise as here, then that's trump and the next suit up is kickback, no exceptions? Or are there exceptions?

At the table, opener bid 4♠, a control, not Kickback, I bid 6♦, the opponents took the first spade trick and partner the next twelve tricks.

I know kickback has its pluses, and I know every convention requires that you give up something. But some conventions also have ambiguity problems unless there are some firm agreements. So, for starters, is it 4♥ or 4♠ that is kickback here?

[Siegmund]

In that auction I would feel like responder took captaincy and 4D demanded cuebids, so kickback would cease to be an option for opener, barring some agreement swapping the meanings of 4NT and one of the 4M cuebids. (But if you want to know how responder asks for aces one bid sooner...um... that's a tough question too. But being forced to show aces specifically rather than by number isnt such a bad thing.)

Disclaimer: I am not a regular kickback user - partly because I am a serious cuebidding addict and partly because I see so many threads where kickback causes accidents.

[paulg]

4♥ is kickback for me.

Generally I do not play kickback in partner's suit, but this specific auction has fixed diamonds as both partners have had the opportunity to suggest hearts as an alternative trump suit - opener over 2♠ and responder over 3♦. It took a fair amount of work and time in the bidding room to sort out our kickback agreements.

[han]

Yes, you need firm agreements about 4H before you play kickback, but you need firm agreements about 4H anyway (is it a suggestion or is it a cue) when you do not play kickback. So this is a good thing.

My general agreement is that when there hasn't been a cue yet, 4M in a bid major is a suggestion if it logically can. Here opener can have a doubleton heart and responder can even have a 6-card suit, so it is clear that suggestion is a possibility. Therefore I would play it as such, and 4S would be kickback. I actually think that in this specific auction it's probably better to play 4H as cue (or kickback), but I do like the general rule that when there hasn't been a cuebid yet, 4M is a suggestion if it can be.

I hope you don't take it as an insult if I recommend that you ask this partner not to play kickback with you. I don't play kickback myself, and I probably spend way more time discussing system with my partner than you do. Maybe I will play it at some point in the future, but it is a very low priority for me.

[han]

Siegmund, on 2011-March-18, 08:17, said:

In that auction I would feel like responder took captaincy and 4D demanded cuebids, so kickback would cease to be an option for opener

I think this is not right. This is the about the only way for responder to raise diamonds, there is no reason why responder should be captain. Opener's hand is limited by the 2C bid but that's it, there should be a way for responder just to show the diamond support and slam interest without obtaining captaincy.

[kenberg]

I don't take your suggestion as an insult at all. In fact, this matches my view. I think I'll give you the hand here. Quite possibly you won't like my choice but I see it as practical when, as was the case, our discussions have not been deep. It's imps with none vul.

---

My 4♦ was a "what else?" bid. It's not passable but I didn't think of it as demanding anything except partner's best effort. I figured 4♠, doubled on my right (to remind himself to lead a spade I guess), was at least somewhat encouraging. From my viewpoint, this could take 11,12 or 13 tricks and I see no way to decide which. Cueing 5♥ seems optimistic, 5♣ seems pointless, I suppose I could try rkc 4NT but if partner's control is a void we have not discussed how to show it. I guessed 6♦, and the guess was right. Once they take their spade, we have more than we need, but even if partner's clubs are Axxx we should be OK barring a 5-1 heart split. Trumps were 3-2 I was glad to see.

I am fairly comfortable playing in this manner with some agreements and relying on reasonable guesswork for the rest. Partner (the kickback enthusiast, not this one) is more inclined toward science.

[mike777]

4h is clearly kickback here.

Not even sure what the issue is here.


Can 4h be to play, no.........does this sequence somehow demand cuebids so kickback does not exist...no....

--


yes touching suits can at times be an issue, 4th suit auctions can be confusing and kickback needs alot of discussion and can be pretty confusing but this auction seems pretty straight forward.


Diamonds are trumps.....4h is kickback. 4s can never never be kickback (rkc asking) for diamonds. It can be a cue and here would often expect it to be a void in s so here I would just bid 4h over 4d.

Yes that means I can never play in 4h after 4d here; this is the tradeoff for playing kickback.

[kenberg]

Mike, you are being way too wishy-washy about this. You need to take a firm position.
They tell me I must add a smiley face here so people can tell when I am joking so

But this has been useful. My feeling was and is that kickback means different things to different people. Whatever the merit of your argument or of Han's argument, there seems to be something to my view. I don't want to stonewall pard if he really wants to play kickback, but I will be interested to hear if he thinks more like Han or more like you.

[gnasher]

If I played Kickback, 4♥ would definitely be Kickback - I don't think you can play in 4♥ when both players declined the opportunity to bid 3♥.

However, this auction is a good example of one of the downsides of Kickback. When you're deciding whether to play slam, the first thing you need to know is whether you have twelve tricks. On this sequence, possession of the top hearts will often be vital for slam. So will possession of a spade control. For opener to be able to take control, he will usually need both of these, but he won't often have them.

Suppose that opener has a heart card but no spade control, and responder has spade control but needs to know about the heart card. If you play Kickback, opener has to bid 4NT to show the heart control, and now you can't check for keycards. If you play normal Keycard, opener bids 4♥, and now responder can check for Keycards with 4NT.

[Free]

Imo 4♥ is clear kickback, responder could've bid 3♠ if he was interested in any other strain than ♦. If ♦ have clearly been set, then 4♥ is kickback, KISS.

[bluecalm]

I wouldn't worry about incorporating kickback into bidding system unless I have all other of 1000's more important problems solved and I have 20 years in solitude to spend on system development.
In Europe as far as I know nobody plays kickback. Even if (and that's big if) it's better in some situations than cuebids unless you are in 10+years partnership you will give it all up by misunderstandings.

[nigel_k]

I also drive a stick shift. I find it improves performance, as does kickback. But you should expect one or two accidents with kickback initially or even just plain forgetting. It takes practice to learn to operate the clutch.

Here are some possible rules:

1. If no trump suit is agreed explicitly, then it implicitly agrees partner’s last natural suit bid. For example, if 4NT would have been keycard for hearts, then 4♠ is kickback even if partner's hearts have not yet been supported.

2. Kickback is always on if trumps have been agreed explicitly (even if the kickback suit is a possible alternative trump suit)

3. 4D is always Kickback if partner’s last natural bid is clubs, except that responder can bid a natural non-jump 4D at his first turn after a 1C opening, e.g. 1C-(3H/S)-4D.

4. 4H/S is Kickback unless there is no other way to bid game in that suit, i.e. 3H/S would not be forcing or the bidding is at the four level already.

5. The general presumption is that the Kickback interpretation takes priority

Rule 2 takes priority over rule 4 so 4♥ would be kickback in your example.

[FrancesHinden]

I do play kickback occasionally, but we have very explicit rules about when it applies.
There are some specified exact auctions (e.g. 1NT - 3C - 3any - 4C is ace-asking in clubs because 3C promised a single-suiter so a new suit would be a cue), but apart from these, one of our rules is:

- It is only kickback if it is a jump, if you are already at the 4-level then a cue-bidding auction is more useful than the blunt instrument of asking for keycards.

so overall I more-or-less agree with han.

[fromageGB]

bluecalm, on 2011-March-18, 14:06, said:

In Europe as far as I know nobody plays kickback. Even if (and that's big if) it's better in some situations than cuebids unless you are in 10+years partnership you will give it all up by misunderstandings.

Hey, I'm in Europe, and there are some of us always play a variety of kickback. But I agree with you about having some costly misunderstandings before it settles in.

4♥ is 100% ace asking. If opener wanted to show some heart support he would have done so on the previous round - especially if playing kickback. Once there has been a suit raise/agreement, it defines the ace asking bid.

Without a definite suit agreement, Nigel gives a good set of groundrules, but I would temper his rule 4 by saying that a jump to 4M is always ace asking (assuming it is one up from one of the suits bid) even if 3M is non-forcing, provided there was some way to make a forcing bid (maybe 4th suit).

For example : you are responder with a goodish hand long spades and opener refuses to play Gazzilli and jumps with strength. It starts 1♥ 1♠ 3♣. You may want to play in 4♠ but that would be ace asking in hearts. 3♠ would be non-forcing, so you bid 3♦ and over 3NT bid 4♠. The fact that you could have asked for aces on the previous round means that this 4♠ is to play.

Slightly trickier if opener decided not to bid 3NT but 3♥ : now 4♠ is decidedly ace asking as it is a jump, so you bid 3♠ knowing this has to be forcing after that 3♦, and then bid 4♠over whatever partner says. It can get convoluted, at times, trying to avoid the ace ask when all you want to do is play in 4♠. But it's good to have an ace ask that itself defines the trump suit.

When it is impossible to be unambiguous ...
take this sequence when opener wants to ask for aces 1♠ (pass) 2♥GF (4♦) ???
... we abandon kickback (is 4♠ to play or ace asking?) and revert to 4NT ace asking with suit unspecified.

[mike777]

"For example : you are responder with a goodish hand long spades and opener refuses to play Gazzilli and jumps with strength. It starts 1♥ 1♠ 3♣. You may want to play in 4♠ but that would be ace asking in hearts. 3♠ would be non-forcing, so you bid 3♦ and over 3NT bid 4♠. The fact that you could have asked for aces on the previous round means that this "



1h=1s
3c=3s I think is still gf for most of us.


1h=1s
3c=3s
4h=4s...now 4s might be confusing since responder might have rebid 4s not 3s. btw I think 4s here is still spades but agree confusing. 1h=1s=3c=4s(rebid 3h to set h)


btw I think 4d not 4h would have agreed spades.

[fromageGB]

mike777, on 2011-March-18, 16:55, said:

1h=1s
3c=3s I think is still gf for most of us.

Not so sure round here. Many people jump with a 16 count, and reply 1♠ with 6142 6count, so having that sequence game forcing would need to be by agreement.

[Cyberyeti]

Is my terminology wrong ? I thought 4♦ would be minorwood/redwood if that was your agreement and 4♥ would be kickback, which I've played for a while.

[jillybean]

I play kickback and after enough practice, we haven`t had any disastrous misunderstandings. Obviously a number of very good players
dislike it, but I`m blissfully unaware of a downside and like it.

Nigel`s kickback `rules` are very useful, thanks. I miss my manual Holden Commodore station waggon.

[blackshoe]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-March-19, 10:50, said:

Is my terminology wrong ? I thought 4♦ would be minorwood/redwood if that was your agreement and 4♥ would be kickback, which I've played for a while.

As I understand it, minorwood is a bid of 4 of the agreed minor as RKCB, redwood is a bid of the (red) suit one step above the agreed minor - which is essentially kickback, but only for the minors.

[kenberg]

This has all been very useful. Han's comments speak to my own instincts that unless we are prepared to spend quite a bit of time discussing this matter, we may well regret playing Kickback.

About jumps:
1♠-2♣-3♣-4♦. I would have no trouble recognizing this one if we played Kickback.
1♥-2♦-3♦-4♥. This has a perfectly good current meaning: I have diamonds and hearts, enough values for game, and only minor values in the black suits. If this is to become Kickback, it has to be on a list.
1♦-2♣-3♣-4♦. Uh huh. Kickback I suppose. Where is that list again?

I enjoy bridge and with my retired status I have time to indulge myself. But writing and memorizing long lists of when it is and when it isn't on is not my idea of a good time. Mike's approach, which I hope I am not mis-stating as "If a suit has been raised then 4 of the next suit up is Kickback, no exceptions", at least takes us past that hurdle.

Even there, there can be issues. I happily noticed that Levin-Weinstein (Congrats to the Fleisher team) play 1♣-(pass)-1♦-(1♥)-X as a support double for diamonds. So do I, with partners who agree. So I suppose something such as 1♣-(pass)-1♦-(1♥)-X-3♥-4♥ is Kickback. At the least, we would have to discuss whether/when a support double triggers the Kickback interpretation.