[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-March-29, 04:40, said:

Kickback or jump shift usage in europe are related to the number of languages and countries as much as i am related to Angelina Jolie.

You seem to think that propensity to play Kickback is a function of which continent you come from. Why do you say that it is independent of which country you come from? And how do you know?

Quote

Anyway, the conventions cards of all european teams or pairs that has played in EC and BB or Worldchamps can be found on the net i think (Also u can find cc of pairs from their national bridge websites and see for yourself how many pairs play kickback) You don't need to know how many languages they speak, or how many bird kinds live in europe to speak about a jump shift or ace asking in bridge. They all have to fill their cc in English at the end of the day.

If you'd said "Very few top European pairs play Kickback", or "Very few Europeans who have played for their country play Kickback", I wouldn't have argued. But you didn't: you said "And yes in Europe there are pairs who plays kickback, but it is not more popular than American Football in europe imo."

I don't see why you think you can extrapolate from what the top players play to what the masses play. Nor do I see why you think that Europe is sufficiently homogeneous to make such a generalisation.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I didn't mention it in this thread ( but in other similar threads ) that:
"In a GF situation and a minor ( m ) is agreed -- outright or implied -- the first partner to bid 4m, then that should be RKC ( Minorwood ) . " Forget the kickback except in very special ( pre-agreed ) auctions ( eg relay situations, etc ).

For this one ( post 40 ) :

1S - 2D! ( 2/1 GF )
3D - 3H ( either a cue or NT probe )
3S - 4D! ( RKC )
5C ( 2 + dQ) - 5H ( kickback for specific K's using Minorwood )
6D ( none ) - pass

[Zelandakh]

That is essentially the recommended method Don, but not the only one. In particular slam try auctions need some discussion. With diamonds as trumps then using 4C as Last Train is an option but then you are already adding a second new convention just to play the first. And when clubs are trumps then there is no equivalent - therefore you need to have the exception that making a no trump probe followed by 4m is no longer RKCB but now merely a slam try. It is all a bit messy for non-expert partnerships.

An alternative is to play that 4m in these auctions is always a slam try. Partner responds with the next step to decline the slam try (whereupon the next step again is RKCB) or with control-showing responses 4m+2, +3, +4, +5 to accept the slam try. Kickback is in operation only if the bid cannot reasonably be natural. This method loses 1 or 2 steps over Minorwood but is much simpler since you need no rule exceptions and slam tries are taken care of making judgement for non-experts easier.

I suspect Minorwood is the better convention for regular expert partnerships and the second version is better for casual partnerships not afraid of new conventions but unwilling to put alot of time into discussing the subtleties.

[FrancesHinden]

Not that I'm (half of) a top European pair, but I do play Kickback in some auctions, and it's not actually mentioned on the main pages of my WBF convention cards (or on the EBU card).

[MrAce]

gnasher, on 2011-March-29, 07:26, said:

If you'd said "Very few top European pairs play Kickback", or "Very few Europeans who have played for their country play Kickback", I wouldn't have argued. But you didn't: you said "And yes in Europe there are pairs who plays kickback, but it is not more popular than American Football in europe imo."

I don't see why you think you can extrapolate from what the top players play to what the masses play. Nor do I see why you think that Europe is sufficiently homogeneous to make such a generalisation.

I dunno why u made a huge deal about it, but it was funny, and the more u talk about it the more i am amused. Because u took 1 sentence from the end of my post, which has nothing to much with the topic itself and was stating that it is not popular in Europe by making a similarity to American Football. Jesus, i am asked if i know how many countries live in Europe, how many languages they speak, and if i have a PHD degree about people's ace asking methods in Europe. LOL

Okay, u are not satisfied with the cc's. Kick back is a convention which is used much more by better players. So i assumed it would be the same in europe. It's home town is USA and it is not popular at all among Flight B and C players. It is played mostly among flight A players.(And no i didnt make a scientific study about this either, this is my personal observation)

The more i am amused because the subject itself (kickback, an ace asking method) has very limited variations. That makes it easier to make statements about it's usage. The Bridge Community arround the world and in Europe is STILL a very small community, regardless of how you try to make it look like a big community by requiring the knowledge of existing countries or languages or bird kinds etc etc. Just the members from Turkey in BBO for example, are close to the total users from Europe. Well, u may say that not everyone has to play in BBO, not everyone has to be competing in their own national league, and if that's the case, if there are SECRET people SECRETLY playing it and it is POPULAR among this SECRET society, then i take my word back

EDIT: And it has nothing to do with "kickback" being a bad or good convention. It is vulnerable for misunderstandings if not discussed very well in a pdship. And guess which pdships discuss more? This also might be the reason why it is more popular among better players or pdships.

[kenberg]

The responses to this thread have far exceeded my expectations, it has really been of interest. As to the do they or don't they European issue, I am sure it can be settled over drinks. I'll even buy the first round.

Thanks for all of the input,
Ken

[gnasher]

MrAce, on 2011-April-02, 00:10, said:

I dunno why u made a huge deal about it

I made a 38-word post saying that it was incorrect to treat Europe as being homogeneous in the same way that North America is. So far that's generated 592 words in replies from you. Which of us is making a big deal of it?

[blackshoe]

North America (Canada, the United States, Mexico) is homogeneous?

[gnasher]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-02, 12:06, said:

North America (Canada, the United States, Mexico) is homogeneous?

I meant homogeneous compared to Europe, and I should probably have excluded Mexico. And I was only talking about bidding methods. I'm not suggesting that you all talk the same.

[jillybean]

kenberg, on 2011-April-02, 07:26, said:

The responses to this thread have far exceeded my expectations, it has really been of interest. As to the do they or don't they European issue, I am sure it can be settled over drinks. I'll even buy the first round.

Thanks for all of the input,
Ken

So, is kickback on your card now?

[MrAce]

kenberg, on 2011-April-02, 07:26, said:

The responses to this thread have far exceeded my expectations, it has really been of interest. As to the do they or don't they European issue, I am sure it can be settled over drinks. I'll even buy the first round.

Thanks for all of the input,
Ken

You are always such a nice guy Ken and come up with something that calms down people Thanks for the drink offer, i promise i will buy the second drinks, when/if we meet at a national or something Sorry if hijacked the topic

[kenberg]

jillybean, on 2011-April-03, 00:25, said:

So, is kickback on your card now?

I play weekly with the partner who wants kickback. Last Thursday there was not time to discuss this, but probably I will agree on something like the following basis: We have to agree on what constitutes minor suit agreement. For example: 1D-1S-3D-4H. One could, maybe should, say that while 3D did not set diamonds as trump, a bid of 3H would (so I think) be forcing and so 4H is an acceptance of diamonds as trump and is kickback. Otoh, I would think 1D-1H-3D-4H means that I want to play 4H. If there is time to go over such things and we find we agree, then I am up for it.

My general view of conventions is this: Without the convention your auction may be less scientific and you may land in a less than optimal contract. But you may land on your feet. Maybe you are in 5D and, seeing the dummy, you wish you were in 6D, but trumps break badly or there is an opening lead ruff or some such and 5D is just fine. Or maybe you are in a sketchy 6D that comes through because everything is lying right. But if you screw up a convention and land in some number of diamonds when you are supposed to be in hearts, you are done for.

So if I can be reasonably confident we have looked in the various corners for mice, it will be on the card.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I happened to find this tidbit in my Minorwood/Kickback files:

From PriorKnowledge ( a sometimes poster here ) for GF auctions:

" You can play both Kickback and Minorwood.
If minor suit fit has been agreed below 4m, then 4m is RKC ( Minorwood ).
But if 4m is needed to announce the fit, then the next bid up is RKC ( Kickback ). "

So, in your original example:

1♦ Pass 1♥ 1♠
2♣ Pass 2♠! Pass
3♦ Pass 4♦ Pass
??
4♥ = Kickback

but if the auction went as follows:

1♦ Pass 1♥ 1♠
2♣ Pass 2♠! Pass
3♣ Pass 3♦ Pass
??
4♦ = Minorwood

[jillybean]

kenberg, on 2011-April-03, 05:04, said:

I play weekly with the partner who wants kickback. Last Thursday there was not time to discuss this, but probably I will agree on something like the following basis: We have to agree on what constitutes minor suit agreement. For example: 1D-1S-3D-4H. One could, maybe should, say that while 3D did not set diamonds as trump, a bid of 3H would (so I think) be forcing and so 4H is an acceptance of diamonds as trump and is kickback. Otoh, I would think 1D-1H-3D-4H means that I want to play 4H. If there is time to go over such things and we find we agree, then I am up for it.

The 1D-1H-3D-4H auction is interesting. I play strong jump shifts so for us, a hand that made a 1H bid followed by 4H should I think, be kickback. A hand willing to play in 4H with no support from partner would have started with 2H. Definately something to go over with my partner.

TWO4BRIDGE , I used to play both minorwood and kickback and found it very confusing.
We have dropped minorwood and play only kickback.

[xxhong]

Kickback is definitely a better treatment than RKCB for minors and for hearts. It is especially a good convention when you can settle your trump suit at 3 level or lower. Problems of misunderstandings usually occur when you can't find your trump fit at 3 level. In those cases, it is probably wiser to play 4NT as Roman Blackwood (Not RKCB). Those who don't play kickback may have severe problems in minor suit grand slams and some problems in minor suit small slams IMO.

In your sequence, if you can play 3D as setting up D and GF, then your life can be much easier IMO. 2S can start invitational sequences.

kenberg, on 2011-March-18, 07:49, said:

OK, I'm slow to change. I still drive a stick shift. But even glaciers melt (a little faster these days). A partner wants to play kickback. I give you an auction.


1♦ Pass 1♥ 1♠
2♣ Pass 2♠ Pass
3♦ Pass 4♦ Pass


OK, here we are with diamonds as presumed trump. With this current partner, we are not playing kickback Suppose we were. Which is now Kickback, 4♥ or 4♠? Opener presumably does not have three hearts but might have, say, Kx and wish to show it, true? But partner might also have a spade control and wish to show it, true? So how does it go? Once there has been a raise, even a somewhat mild raise as here, then that's trump and the next suit up is kickback, no exceptions? Or are there exceptions?

At the table, opener bid 4♠, a control, not Kickback, I bid 6♦, the opponents took the first spade trick and partner the next twelve tricks.

I know kickback has its pluses, and I know every convention requires that you give up something. But some conventions also have ambiguity problems unless there are some firm agreements. So, for starters, is it 4♥ or 4♠ that is kickback here?

[zenko]

To quote the Mickey Rourke's advice to William Hurt in Body Heat: " I got a serious question for you: What the f... are you doing? This is not s... for you to be messin' with. Are you ready to hear something? Any time you try a decent crime (or play Kickback), you got fifty ways you're gonna f... up. If you think of twenty-five of them, then you're a genius... and you ain't no genius."

BTW, yes, I am driving stick shift too