[jillybean]

---

2/1
I had planned to bid 2N over 2m. Is the correct bid still 2N, implying 2♥ and an
invitational hand, whereas 3♥ would be a 3 card limit raise?

[Mbodell]

I think that is totally correct if the suit in question was spades. If the suit in question is hearts (and assuming you aren't playing flannery or something else where you wouldn't bid 1♠ with 4) I think you can argue that one of the heart raises should be 2♠ in this auction which leaves one of 2nt/2♠ as the bids showing a 31(45) type hand.

[aguahombre]

Having found a better use for the "impossible spade" bid on this specific auction ---IMO, 3H should just invite game and could be either this hand or one with 3h.

The better use (for us, anyway) is using 2S (or 2NT) to show an invitational minor 5+ 5+ 2-suiter; with the other one reserved for the 3-1-(4-5) invite.

[wank]

3♥ is just invitational in hearts. you don't need to fixate on this 'describing your hand' stuff when partner isn't going to care. if you have a 3rd heart you're just going to be a point or 2 lighter - an original maximum 3 card limit raise can just goto game now after hearing about a 6th heart.

that leaves 2nt for the singleton hands.

[P_Marlowe]

Descripe your hand, you have 10-12 bal, show it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

Absolutely bid 3H, 2NT does not show (or imply, whatever that means) 2 hearts.

[gwnn]

standard, as far as I can tell, is:

2N=invite, strong preference for no trumps (may have a doubleton ♥)
3♥=invite, 2 hearts
4♥=3-card limit raise

[billw55]

edit: removed nonsense

[Phil]

2♠ shows 5-5 in the minors typically. I would bid 3♥ with this.

[jillybean]

 han, on 2011-December-28, 06:52, said:

Absolutely bid 3H, 2NT does not show (or imply, whatever that means) 2 hearts.

Imply: Strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated): "the report implies that two million jobs might be lost".

[CSGibson]

as Gwnn stated, 3♥ is invitational with 2 hearts, 4♥ shows the hand that was originally planning to show a 3 card limit raise.

[ggwhiz]

I prefer 2nt. 6 heart tricks, my 2 Aces can make 9 tricks opposite whatever else pard has although they don't promise a 6-card suit.

2nt to show a stiff ♥ in your likely source of tricks feels misguided. That hand should pass 2♥. Change a small ♠ to a minor suit for a potential ruff and I'm more inclined to bid 3♥.

[aguahombre]

 CSGibson, on 2011-December-28, 09:56, said:

as Gwnn stated, 3♥ is invitational with 2 hearts, 4♥ shows the hand that was originally planning to show a 3 card limit raise.

Certainly true of a good 3-card limit raise; but I still think one which was close to bottom for the original intent could bid only 3H here.

[fred]

I don't think anyone has mentioned the possibility of bidding 3NT, but I think it is the clearly correct bid (assuming you never bid 1NT with hands with which you were always intending on forcing to game).

3NT should suggest a hand just like this: a balanced hand with a doubleton (or occasionally tripleton?) heart honor and (typically) a couple of Aces. Partner is free to remove of course if he thinks that 4H rates to be a better contract than 3NT opposite this sort of hand.

By the way, I don't agree with the notion that either 3H or 4H promises (or even suggests) any particular number of hearts. Surely 4H in particular means nothing more than "I think we have a good chance to win 10 tricks with hearts as trump". 3H just means "Bid 4H (or 3NT) if you have a maximum".

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[MrAce]

 fred, on 2011-December-28, 10:19, said:

I don't think anyone has mentioned the possibility of bidding 3NT, but I think it is the clearly correct bid (assuming you never bid 1NT with hands with which you were always intending on forcing to game).

3NT should suggest a hand just like this: a balanced hand with a doubleton (or occasionally tripleton?) heart honor and (typically) a couple of Aces. Partner is free to remove of course if he thinks that 4H rates to be a better contract than 3NT opposite this sort of hand.

By the way, I don't agree with the notion that either 3H or 4H promises (or even suggests) any particular number of hearts. Surely 4H in particular means nothing more than "I think we have a good chance to win 10 tricks with hearts as trump". 3H just means "Bid 4H (or 3NT) if you have a maximum".

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

But Fred then you are not inviting, you are just bidding the game all by yourself. And i agree this particular hand worths to bid game but i think the focus was about the methods to invite to game with 3 or 2 card support rather than what this specific hand should bid. So if this hand was a bit lighter and u were to invite, what would be your choice ? And what do you think of 2♠ ?

[mike777]

Wow the good players just jump to game, I thought this was a bare minimum 3h bid. I could understand 2nt also.

I assumed pard is bidding game with any 13 point hand and 50% of 12 pt hands and a tiny few with less.

[fred]

 MrAce, on 2011-December-28, 12:26, said:

But Fred then you are not inviting, you are just bidding the game all by yourself. And i agree this particular hand worths to bid game but i think the focus was about the methods to invite to game with 3 or 2 card support rather than what this specific hand should bid. So if this hand was a bit lighter and u were to invite, what would be your choice ? And what do you think of 2♠ ?

My tendency would be to bid 3H with a balanced hand I judge to be worth an invitation that includes 2-card heart support. A couple of reasons that I would normally bid 3H instead of 2NT:

1) It is easier to get back to notrump if you raise hearts than it is to get back to hearts if you bid notrump. That is because, if you raise to 3H, a thoughtful partner when accepting the invitation will try 3NT on many 6322 hands. But if you bid 2NT and partner is 6331, he might Pass 2NT with a minimum or bid 3NT with a maximum (and chances are good you will belong in hearts).

2) You are forced to bid 2NT on some invitational hands that contain less than 2 hearts so, by refraining from rebidding 2NT on most hands that contain 2 hearts, you make it easier for partner to evaluate his hand.

As for the 2S bid, you can make up your own sexy convention that could certainly extend responder's options. However, I am quite sure that there is no clear standard for what this bid means and since this is a Beginner/Intermediate forum, I believe this problem presents (much) more useful lessons than how best to utilize the idle 2S bid.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[fred]

 mike777, on 2011-December-28, 12:50, said:

Wow the good players just jump to game, I thought this was a bare minimum 3h bid. I could understand 2nt also.

I assumed pard is bidding game with any 13 point hand and 50% of 12 pt hands and a tiny few with less.

This hand is a great illustration of the limitations of point count and why it is necessary to visualize possible hands for partner in order to take your game to the next level.

If, for example, you give partner nothing more than 6322 with AK-sixth of hearts and a black suit King (ie a weak 2-bid for many/most people), 3NT is a great contract despite there being only 21 combined HCPs.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[han]

 jillybean, on 2011-December-28, 09:51, said:

Imply: Strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated): "the report implies that two million jobs might be lost".

I'm glad you looked it up, now you know that 2NT does not imply 2 hearts.

[jillybean]

 han, on 2011-December-28, 18:47, said:

I'm glad you looked it up, now you know that 2NT does not imply 2 hearts.

Is this kind of response really necessary?