[InTime]

---

Dealer: East
Vul: All
Game: MP
You open with this hand and the bidding goes:
1D - (1S) - 2S - (Pass)
3D - (Pass) - 3S?
The question here what does 3S mean here? . . . what is the intention of your partner?
What do you rebid?
What is the best agreement on this kind of bidding?
Although I have given the hand I am after what should be the agreement be when your partner makes a repeat cue-bid in the opps suit after you have denied a stopper.
Apologies if I have posted this to the wrong forum.
Regards

[billw55]

If it is understood that 3♦ denied a stopper, then I think 3♠ should be a control, looking for slam. I don't really know if such a treatment of 3♦ is standard.

[Cyberyeti]

First question - what did 2♠ mean ? this to me is a diamond raise not a stopper ask, so 3♦ just showed an unbalanced minimum (I don't have the problem that I might have a balanced minimum playing weak NT), so 3♠ is the stopper ask.

What are you supposed to bid with a 3442/2443 minimum with no spade stop playing strong NT over the 2♠ stopper ask ? How far is 2♠ forcing ?

You need agreements about this and the rest of your system will govern which are sensible.

[dboxley]

I also would play 2S as limit raise + so I would play 3S as stopper asking but if I have already denied a stopper I would now bid 5D if partner has denied a heart control or 4C otherwise. Partner doesn't know my diamonds are this good.

[gszes]

When posting never assume everyone bids the same way. There are 2 posters here that play 2s as showing a limit

and I prefer to play it as a generic game force with no clear direction. Please clarify your partnership agreement on

the meaning of 2s before we can go on.

[trevahound]

doesn't someone have to own up to 4!h at some point? I'm not that shy. I'd have rebid 3!h the first time -- I'm not ashamed of my (barely) GF hand after pard's probably LR+. Many hands pard might have could be awkward after a neg X, and I've even heard on occasion that 4-3 fits aren't always disasterous. Pard might also have a hand wide open in !h's. How wrong can bidding what I have be after pard's show of strength? One final thought -- I want to claim new strains where possible, to reduce the chances pard gets their hands on this beautiful dummy.

[32519]

gszes, on 2014-February-12, 19:01, said:

When posting never assume everyone bids the same way. There are 2 posters here that play 2♠ as showing a limit, but I prefer to play it as a generic game force with no clear direction.

This is how we play it also.

Partner is an unpassed hand. The first 2♠ bid would be "a generic game force with no clear direction." The second ♠ bid (3♠) would be asking for a ♠ stopper to play 3NT.

[InTime]

gszes, on 2014-February-12, 19:01, said:

When posting never assume everyone bids the same way. There are 2 posters here that play 2s as showing a limit

and I prefer to play it as a generic game force with no clear direction. Please clarify your partnership agreement on

the meaning of 2s before we can go on.

Our agreement is that 2S is a cue-bid raise with 10+pts. If partner has a stopper he should bid 2NT or 3NT with extra values. The 2S is not a GF.
I will also appreciate if you can explain the meaning of "generic game force".

[Mbodell]

InTime, on 2014-February-13, 01:05, said:

Our agreement is that 2S is a cue-bid raise with 10+pts. If partner has a stopper he should bid 2NT or 3NT with extra values. The 2S is not a GF.
I will also appreciate if you can explain the meaning of "generic game force".

This is how I'd play it too. Therefore I'd play 3♠ is a probe for 3nt asking if you have a half stop/help stopping spades. Stiff Q is probably good enough, though not always. You hope partner has something like Kxx or JTxx or something and that we will have a stopper as a result (sometimes partner has a full stop but something like Ax but only wants to play 3nt if you have a half stop and right side it, usually partner has half a stop and needs solidifying from your holding, sometimes partner has no stop and is just hoping for the best). A hand like Jxxx Kx Axxx Axx might well bid this way.

If partner pulls 3nt then it was a cue for slam in diamonds.

[Fluffy]

2♠: invitational+ raise
3♠: GF raise

[rhm]

32519, on 2014-February-13, 00:39, said:

This is how we play it also.

Partner is an unpassed hand. The first 2♠ bid would be "a generic game force with no clear direction." The second ♠ bid (3♠) would be asking for a ♠ stopper to play 3NT.

You can play of course what you like, but I think this is certainly not standard.
Standard is that 2♠ shows an invitational plus raise, and if that is a minor, first concern tends to be whether game in notrumps is an option.
When responder returns to the agreed minor, 3♦ is a suggestion to play opposite an invitational raise and by implication tends to deny a good stopper for notrumps.

Rainer Herrmann

[mfa1010]

3♦ did not deny a stopper, it just showed a minimum hand suitable for playing in diamonds. Over 3♠, fishing, we have a very strong hand in context, so I would bid 4♠ showing shortness. 4♣ is also an option.

[Zelandakh]

NB: not an expert but I think this is more of an I/A question anyway.

As you can tell, there are plenty of options for these auctions, even given that 2♠ shows a diamond fit (which not everyone does). First of all you need to decide how far 2♠ is forcing. If it is not forcing to 3♦ then you are pretty much left with either:

2NT = min + stopper
3♦ = min without stopper;

or

2NT = weak NT (with or without stopper)
3♦ = real diamonds + min (with or without stopper).

or

2NT = weak NT (with or without stopper)
3♣ = real diamonds + stopper
3♦ = real diamonds + min + no stopper.

Fill in additional bids logically, eg 3♣ = game try; 3♥ = nat and GF; 3♠ = GF, no stopper, not 4♥.

If 2♠ is forcing to 3♦ then we can afford to include more hands in 2NT. If 2NT were bid on any hand with a stopper then all of the other calls now deny one. For example:

2NT = any hand with a stopper
3♣ = game try without a stopper
3♦ = min without stopper
3♥ = GF, nat without stopper
3♠ = GF, no stopper, not 4♥
3NT = GF, half stopper, not 4♥

Alternatively we could differentiate by hand type:

2NT = any balanced hand
3♣ = real diamonds, min, stopper
3♦ = real diamonds, min, no stopper
3♥ = real diamonds, GF, nat
3♠ = real diamonds, GF, no stopper, not 4♥
3NT = real diamonds, GF, stopper, not 4♥

This is only a selection - other possibilities exist. Many will frown upon the use of 3♣ as a game try too; whether that is useful depends to some extent on how low you go for the cue raise. I doubt it matters too much which philosophy you follow so long as it is the same one as partner. For me, schemes 1 and 4 fit best. Whichever one you choose, there are knock-on effects to the follow-ups.

In your case it sounds to me that you are playing something along the lines of structure 1. In that case 3♠ is going to be asking for a half-stopper for 3NT but could yet turn out to be an advance cue.

Finally, in this context "generic game force" means that the hand wants to force to game but has no convenient forcing call to make. Fourth suit forcing could be described this way too and I sometimes teach that it is best to respond to all such 3 level cue bids as if they were fourth suit forcing (unless otherwise agreed). In other words, whatever the structure used, 3♠ is asking whether Opener has a spade stopper within the context of the auction. If a stop has already been denied then a half stop is enough; if not then a full stop is being sought. If we had denied any sort of stop then a cue would be a slam try. By keeping some simple "meta" rules like this you can decipher most such nebulous bids and therefore increase your bidding arsenal as a partnership greatly.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

assuming standard agreements

#1 2S was showing a fit and inv.+ strength
=> 3D showes a min, and also not a suitable hand for 2NT,
i.e. it denies a stopper
#2 3S is forcing to game, and asks partner for a half stopper

#3 4S splinter

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jallerton]

InTime, on 2014-February-13, 01:05, said:

Our agreement is that 2S is a cue-bid raise with 10+pts. If partner has a stopper he should bid 2NT or 3NT with extra values. The 2S is not a GF.
I will also appreciate if you can explain the meaning of "generic game force".

Presumably something slightly stronger than a generic game try a term which most people seem to think they understand, even if they can't agree with each other!

[gszes]

jallerton, on 2014-February-13, 13:03, said:

Presumably something slightly stronger than a generic game try a term which most people seem to think they understand, even if they can't agree with each other!

Generic game force is any hand that wishes to demand we play game or more but could not readily show
a feature conveniently given how the bidding went. For ex if you are playing inverted minors you could
use the 2d bid to show limit raises in diamonds and to show game forcing you could use 2s and later raise
diamonds if your partnership wished. Most of the time a generic game force is either a very strong balanced
type hand wanting to see if p has any interesting distribution or a GF hand that happens to have
no (or maybe a partial) stop in the opps suit for NT purposes and is looking for a stopper.

hands like xxx AKx Kxx Axxx is a good example one could temporize with 2c but that could just lead to
many awkward bidding sequences. 2s does a much better job of keeping the bidding low w/o distorting
distribution. It is hands like these where I like inverted minors in competition since I have rarely come
across a hand where a weak 2d bid has actually hindered anyone:)))))))))))))))))))))) but I digress

[jogs]

InTime, on 2014-February-13, 01:05, said:

Our agreement is that 2S is a cue-bid raise with 10+pts. If partner has a stopper he should bid 2NT or 3NT with extra values. The 2S is not a GF.
I will also appreciate if you can explain the meaning of "generic game force".

Aren't most partnership playing the cuebid as a "generic game force"? Forcing to 3NT or 4 of a suit. That would mean the cuebid is 13+ points. Many 12s would qualify. When partner opens a 5-card major, many 10s would fit.
Opener would rebid NT with stoppers and a min. Therefore it would be rare for responder to recue.

[aguahombre]

I don't understand using the cue to merely establish any old game force. Responder has forcing or nonforcing (your choice) freebids and a negative double for hands without Diamond support, (or even with Diamond support). This leaves the 2S Cue for only hands with Diamond support and not 4 hearts; does Acol not have negative doubles in the kit?

We have an unpopular agreement for this situation which affects what the re-cue means.

1D (1S) 2S is L.R. + for Diamonds and already denies a Spade stopper for NT.
1S (1S) 2D is inverted after a 1-level overcall and shows a Spade stopper.

So, when Opener declines an invite with a 3D rebid, our re-cue is taken initially as a probe with a partial, but might be slammish with shortness control of Spades.

Some of this is like Uwe's post, but I don't pretend to know what is "standard". I do pretend to know that using a jump to 4S as a splinter for slam after Opener has rebid 3D gobbles up way too much bidding space, and I strongly disagree with Mr. Marlowe on that one.

[jogs]

aguahombre, on 2014-February-15, 17:50, said:

1D (1S) 2S is L.R. + for Diamonds and already denies a Spade stopper for NT.

There's no need to restrict the cue for raise in diamonds. How many diamonds does 1♦ promise? How many diamonds are needed for a limit raise? In a contested auction there isn't much advantage to playing limit raises in a minor. In a major the limit raise was what was considered a L.R. in the eighties. Today we know with a 5-4 fit those hand pairs are a favorite to make 10 tricks.
Play the cue as L.R. or general force with a flat pattern hand. That is more flexible. With a strong suit (KQTxx) bid the suit first.

Quote

1D (1S) 2D is inverted after a 1-level overcall and shows a Spade stopper.

There is a huge game theory advantage to playing 2♦ as natural and to play. There are too many 4-card diamond support hands which would be unbiddable if 2♦ were inverted.

[aguahombre]

jogs, on 2014-February-15, 18:50, said:

There's no need to restrict the cue for raise in diamonds. How many diamonds does 1♦ promise? How many diamonds are needed for a limit raise? (Four, unless 4=4=3=2, in which case Opener will bid NT)

There is a huge game theory advantage to playing 2♦ as natural and to play. There are too many 4-card diamond support hands which would be unbiddable if 2♦ were inverted.

(As I said, what we do is not popular; but, we haven't run across the hands where a mere single raise with a minimum response and only four Diamonds would have been sucessful rather than lose or break even at IMPs anyway.)