[MrAce]

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IMPS, diagram says it all. This is not a hesitation issue, North passed in normal tempo.

Thanks for replies

[chasetb]

This is a ghastly hand; I don't feel it's worth opening 2♥ or Xing on. It could go either way, but looking at a void and a 6-card suit I bid 3♥ and don't let the opponents see me sweat. At least partner knows I already passed, so (s)he should know I could be this weak.

[nige1]

MrAce wrote...
IMPS, diagram says it all. This is not a hesitation issue, North passed in normal tempo.

IMO
Playing 2/1 or SAYC, you might open 2♥.
Now, Pass = 10, 3♥ = 7, Double = 4
Double works well, when partner has a trump stack. Unfortunately, however, partner will be tempted to pass with a variety of puddings and may be disappointed by your lack of tricks and trump-void.

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[Onedown]

Why am I competing in a part score? Partner passed and either has a club stack and no double, no 3NT bid etc. I am going to assume the points are evenly spread evenly. I would also assume RHO has a shape hand like myself and would love to defend anything we bid.

[mtvesuvius]

This is a rough hand -- When I first looked at it, I thought it was an obvious pass. I thought about it a bit more, and think Pass is still right, but it is much closer. Partner shouldn't be trapping very often at this Vulnerability, and I'm willing to pay off to when partner has the right balanced hand that couldn't act. As a side note, I think I'd have opened 2♥, the 6-4 hands are painful to pass.

[Cyberyeti]

Can't have this hand, would have opened.

[JLOGIC]

Opening r/w second seat seems crazy to me, I know I am a conservative preemptor but I cannot imagine this one being a winning style....

I would balance with 3H, we might easily still have a game. I'm not willing to double with no tricks and no trumps even though partner is very likely passing. I could see passing though, partner is probably bidding and if it's not 4H and is 3N that might be bad, maybe just taking my plus is right. On the upside we are never getting doubled (LHO 3rd w/r, RHO passed hand), so even if 3C and whatever we get to are down, it will be a small loss, I think it's worth the risk to get to a good vul game.

[MrAce]

JLOGIC, on 2011-July-06, 04:43, said:

Opening r/w second seat seems crazy to me, I know I am a conservative preemptor but I cannot imagine this one being a winning style....

I am an agressive preemptor (or maybe i thought i was, apparently not as agressive as some members here) and it didnt occur to me at the table, i held the south hand.

[Free]

No thanks, pass. I agree with the earlier pass, the vulnerability, values, honour location and suit quality are just too poor.

[whereagles]

Gonna pass. Shape is nice but I think you gotta draw the line somewhere and this is below my line.

[ArtK78]

3♥. Quite frankly, I am surprised to see that this is a problem.

There are many hands that partner can hold on which we are cold for 4♥ and he cannot act sensibly over 3♣. This reason alone justifies the risk that you take in bidding 3♥.

Since RHO is a passed hand, the chance that 3♥ will run into a buzzsaw is minimal.

[MrAce]

Assume u bid 3♥ and ended up in playing 4♥ (i converted EW to NS for comfort)

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How would you play after ♣K lead ?

[nige1]

MrAce revealed
How would you play after ♣K lead ?
Assume u bid 3♥ and ended up in playing 4♥ (i converted EW to NS for comfort)

4♥ is a good contract, although partner's hand -- with 4-5 losers and only 16 HCP--- is a bit of a disappointment

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[Free]

Ruff, play a small ♥ to the J. Keep that ♣A until later.

[rhm]

Play ♣A immediately!
If RHO ruffs low you over-ruff and get an additional ruff in dummy,
If RHO does not ruff low you discard a ♠ from hand.
Next play ♦AK
If this passes off, ruff a ♣ and play ♦Q
If LHO follows or ruffs high, discard the ♠8
Next cash your ♠A and play the rest as a cross ruff by ruffing ♠ first in dummy.
If LHO ruffs the ♦Q low, over-ruff and ruff a third ♣ in hand and ruff your last ♦, high if RHO is out of ♦.
Next cash the ♠A and play a fourth ♣ from dummy.

Opponents will be helpless.

They get either 3 trump tricks or if they can draw a round of trumps 2 trump tricks and a side suit trick.

This line looses only against some fairly unlikely layouts:
LHO needs to have a singleton or void in ♦ and either both small trumps or LHO has a singleton small trump and RHO the ♠K.
But it wins against other trump distributions, including 4 trumps with East. It does not matter who has the ♠K for this line
Unless LHO has ♥105 in trumps, LHO will not be able to ruff a early ♦ round and then draw 2 rounds of trumps.
He can not have AKx in ♥ and open 3♣.
Say LHO ruffs the second ♦ and cashes one high heart.
His best play now is a ♠. You win with the ♠A and ruff a ♣ to discard the ♠8 on the ♦Q.

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

♥

rhm, on 2011-July-08, 06:18, said:

This line looses only against some fairly unlikely layouts:
LHO needs to have a singleton or void in ♦ and either both small trumps or LHO has a singleton small trump and RHO the ♠K.
But it wins against other trump distributions, including 4 trumps with East. It does not matter who has the ♠K for this line
Unless LHO has ♥105 in trumps, LHO will not be able to ruff a early ♦ round and then draw 2 rounds of trumps.
He can not have AKx in ♥ and open 3♣.
Say LHO ruffs the second ♦ and cashes one high heart.
His best play now is a ♠. You win with the ♠A and ruff a ♣ to discard the ♠8 on the ♦Q.

Rainer Herrmann

Doesn't 1057/7420 or more likely 2047/6430 also doom you if the honours are in the long suits (E ditches a diamond on the first club whether you play the A or not, then ruffs the second or third top diamond and plays 3 more trumps) so the 4-0s are not so clear cut.

Looks a decent line though. I'm not sure how to evaluate take the A♣, cash ♦AK, ruff a club, ruff 10♦ with J♥. Play small trump if not overruffed. Slightly depends who I'm playing against, if I can rely on them opening 1 with 7 to the KQJ and K10(x), I quite fancy this.

[rhm]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-July-08, 07:55, said:

♥
Doesn't 1057/7420 or more likely 2047/6430 also doom you if the honours are in the long suits (E ditches a diamond on the first club whether you play the A or not, then ruffs the second or third top diamond and plays 3 more trumps) so the 4-0s are not so clear cut.

Looks a decent line though. I'm not sure how to evaluate take the A♣, cash ♦AK, ruff a club, ruff 10♦ with J♥. Play small trump if not overruffed. Slightly depends who I'm playing against, if I can rely on them opening 1 with 7 to the KQJ and K10(x), I quite fancy this.

It is true that there are some extreme distribution where my line fails when trumps are 0-4 and RHO defends perfectly, e.g not ruffing the ♣A at trick one for example.
Of course you can assume some extremely unlikely distributions like giving the club preemptor a 5 card ♦ suit in addition to the 7 cards in ♣. The chance for that, giving the club preempt, is below 1% and LHO would probably have preempted higher with that anyway.
Your line is great when RHO has all the trumps, but looses when LHO has a singleton trump and you misguess, which one, when you play a trump from the table. The best you can do is to finesse against the ♥Ten, but then you are down when LHO has this card and returns a ♠ and all the time RHO could have had 4 cards in ♦ and you would still be down. The ♦queen wins easily against this position.
Overall your line is no improvement and probably does worse overall.

The whole point is that it is right to play the ♣ ace at trick one and it is wrong to play trumps yourself early.

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

rhm, on 2011-July-08, 15:04, said:

It is true that there are some extreme distribution where my line fails when trumps are 0-4 and RHO defends perfectly, e.g not ruffing the ♣A at trick one for example.
Of course you can assume some extremely unlikely distributions like giving the club preemptor a 5 card ♦ suit in addition to the 7 cards in ♣. The chance for that, giving the club preempt, is below 1% and LHO would probably have preempted higher with that anyway.
Your line is great when RHO has all the trumps, but looses when LHO has a singleton trump and you misguess, which one, when you play a trump from the table. The best you can do is to finesse against the ♥Ten, but then you are down when LHO has this card and returns a ♠ and all the time RHO could have had 4 cards in ♦ and you would still be down. The ♦queen wins easily against this position.
Overall your line is no improvement and probably does worse overall.

The whole point is that it is right to play the ♣ ace at trick one and it is wrong to play trumps yourself early.

Rainer Herrmann

Agreed, this is what I was saying about the preemptor's opening style, if he has KQJxxxx and I'll know that at trick one, if I can be sure he doesn't have another K, my line is fine, but not sure if it's better, as I think it fails on many of the same hands.

And the 5-2 diamonds was a throwaway, I said 4W-3E was more likely and that still defeats you if trumps are 4-0.

Is there anything to be said for just winning the A♣ ditching a diamond, then playing ♠Ax with the intention of then ruffing a club and leading the first trump from hand, assuming the preemptor won't have ♥K10x or a heart singleton and the ♠K.

Basically you're safe on any 2-2 trumps, any 3-1 either way with the K♠ onside unless it's alongside a stiff A♥, and any 0-4 where the E hand has at least 3 diamonds and the K♠. If the trumps are 3-1 with the K♠ offside, I have chances unless W switches to his singleton trump.

[MrAce]

Preemptor had ( some spots that doesnt make a difference can be wrong )

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