[MrAce]

1♦-(pass)-1♥-(2♠)*
3♥

* preempt

Teamgame, 2/1 system std 1♦ opening. All white.


What does opener have ? 12-14 ? More ?

[ArtK78]

Roughly 12-16 with good support. The better the support, the lower the required HCP.

Partner is in a tough spot. He is going to stretch to show support but he doesn't want to go overboard.

With a good raise to 3♥ (out of competition) he will probably bid 4♥.

[semeai]

I'd say 12 to a bad 16.

[mike777]

extras.

with less start with good/bad 2nt then 3h over forced 3c.

[MrAce]

ArtK78, on 2011-July-07, 15:06, said:

Roughly 12-16 with good support. The better the support, the lower the required HCP.

Partner is in a tough spot. He is going to stretch to show support but he doesn't want to go overboard.

With a good raise to 3♥ (out of competition) he will probably bid 4♥.

Since u said 12-16, i think u never have a 4 card support when pass ?

[mtvesuvius]

I expect a 2 1/2 heart bid

[gnasher]

I'm not sure how standard this is, but as opener I'd bid 3♥ on almost any minimum that has four hearts. You can't let them play an easy 2♠ when you might be making 3♥, or when you might be able to push them to 3♠-1.

That approach does create a problem when opener has a better hand. There are various artificial solutions - 2NT as a good raise, or transfers, or Good-Bad 2NT (ugh) - but without any of those I think you should just play a wider-range 3♥, and be aggressive when bidding 4♥. It doesn't hurt to make them guess whether to save or not.

[the hog]

gnasher, on 2011-July-07, 16:42, said:

I'm not sure how standard this is, but as opener I'd bid 3♥ on almost any minimum that has four hearts. You can't let them play an easy 2♠ when you might be making 3♥, or when you might be able to push them to 3♠-1.

That approach does create a problem when opener has a better hand. There are various artificial solutions - 2NT as a good raise, or transfers, or Good-Bad 2NT (ugh) - but without any of those I think you should just play a wider-range 3♥, and be aggressive when bidding 4♥. It doesn't hurt to make them guess whether to save or not.

Agree with Andy, though I don't know why he says "Ugh" to good/bad.

[inquiry]

mike777, on 2011-July-07, 15:12, said:

extras.

with less start with good/bad 2nt then 3h over forced 3c.

This is my agreement with my parnter as well, direct 3♥ shows extras. I have been toying with Marshal Miles' suggestion to reverse good/bad 2NT (direct bid weaker, 2NT first stronger). The concept is to get your bid in before your LHO raises his partner.... imagine if you use the weaker 2NT with the weak hand and your LHO bids 3♠. Your partner just knows you are weak, but he doesn't know you have heart support. That might make a lot of difference. I am not sure what is the best way (like I said I typically play normal G/B 2NT). What is your thoughts on the possibility of reversing the normal meaning?

[Free]

Around 12-16, but not with every 12-13 hand ofcourse. With minimums you need some extra distribution. I won't bid 3♥ on any 4432 distribution.

[MrAce]

Here is why i brought this up.

Responder had

KJ
AQxxx
xxx
J9x

Pd opened 1♦, he responded 1♥, LHO bid 2♠, pd bid 3♥ and he passed. I am assuming due to 2♠ bid being made from left.

His pd tabled something like

Ax
JTxx
KQJx
Kxx

And the game was cold. But apart from the score, eventhough i have sympathy to pass, i still believe ruling out all the honors u have just because somneone bid it from your left is wrong. This KJ tide is still a value, of course it is far from a KJxx(x) but still a value. Even if not makes a single trick, just forcing opps to lead another suit of your sides is a gain. It should not be treated like "Omg, lefty bid 2♠, now my hand is 7 hcp only"

As to the original topic, i also think 3♥ must be 12-16 but i would not bid 3♥ with balanced 12-14 hcp. As Adam said it is 2,5 ♥ for me, not as in bean count but as in pottential of the hand. I wld always support pd with 11 hcp and 5431 or 4441 hand but If my pd can have 12-14 flat hand, i think i would consider pass with this hand too...perhaps...idk, just wanted to know what u guys think it is.

[FrancesHinden]

inquiry, on 2011-July-07, 21:00, said:

This is my agreement with my parnter as well, direct 3♥ shows extras. I have been toying with Marshal Miles' suggestion to reverse good/bad 2NT (direct bid weaker, 2NT first stronger). The concept is to get your bid in before your LHO raises his partner.... imagine if you use the weaker 2NT with the weak hand and your LHO bids 3♠. Your partner just knows you are weak, but he doesn't know you have heart support. That might make a lot of difference. I am not sure what is the best way (like I said I typically play normal G/B 2NT). What is your thoughts on the possibility of reversing the normal meaning?

I play 2NT as either competing in clubs or good in a red suit (it doesn't work if you completely reverse all the meanings - if 2NT is good in any suit, what is partner supposed to bid over 2NT?). So for me I bid 3H on virtually any hand with 4-card heart support; I bid 4H on a distributional hand and I bid 2NT then 3H or 4H on a stronger more balanced hand (as that hand type is less likely to generate spade raises).

If you don't play good/bad here - and even some people who do would not include a heart raise as an option - then 3H just shows most decent opening bids with 4-card support. OK, you would pass with QJx Kxxx Axxx Qx but certainly Kx KQxx Axxx xxx wants to bid 3H.

[MrAce]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-July-09, 14:46, said:

If you don't play good/bad here - and even some people who do would not include a heart raise as an option - then 3H just shows most decent opening bids with 4-card support. OK, you would pass with QJx Kxxx Axxx Qx but certainly Kx KQxx Axxx xxx wants to bid 3H.

Yes, perhaps i asked the question wrong way or was not clear enough (my bad). I was interested in mostly "What would you expect with no agreements, but an expert pd"

Eventhough good-bad is common for quite a lot people, i don't think we would expect an expert pd to assume we play it without agreement.