[Free]

A few days ago I encountered the following situation at a club evening:

V vs NV the auction went:
pass - 2♠ - Dbl - ...3♠
4♥ - pass - pass - 4♠
pass - pass - Dbl - pass
?

What are the meanings of 4NT and 5m in this case?

What would 4NT or 5m mean immediately after 4♠? Is there a difference?

NOTE: we have openings to show a weak hand with 5-5 or better distribution. Values should be in the suits.

[OleBerg]

Free, on Jul 3 2009, 09:12 AM, said:

A few days ago I encountered the following situation at a club evening:

V vs NV the auction went:
pass - 2♠ - Dbl - ...3♠
4♥ - pass - pass - 4♠
pass - pass - Dbl - pass
?

What are the meanings of 4NT and 5m in this case?

What would 4NT or 5m mean immediately after 4♠?  Is there a difference?

NOTE: we have openings to show a weak hand with 5-5 or better distribution.  Values should be in the suits.

It depends on agreements.

My agreement is, that if we bid a game V vs NV, and we didn't have a stronger route available, we are in a forcing pass situation. So the double is simply no interest in bidding on.

5m would be a descriptive bid, also saying, that if the opponents bid 5♠, we should consider bidding 6♥.

Personally I have no agreement about 4NT, but "Another stain possible" makes sense to me, especially at IMP's.


I know, however, that being in a force here, is not nescesarily standard. If we are not in a force (I wouldn't be at any other vulnerabilety), double simply says: "I have extras, make an intelligent decision."

[helene_t]

4NT is a little weird. Sounds like 0455 but that's 14 cards. Maybe 04(54) is OK, especially if the 4-card suit is better. Or maybe 4144 is ok but I think I would pass with that shape.

5m a suggestion to play.

Maybe it's a better use of 4NT to distinguish 5♥5m from 4♥5+m, or to have a way to show 0544.

[gnasher]

In other auctions, 5m is to strong suggestion to play there and 4NT offers a choice. By analogy, therefore
5m = five cards, with only four hearts.
4MT = one or more four-card minors, and therefore either three-suited or a hand with five hearts.

Assuming that this isn't a forcing-pass situation, the bids have the same meanings about shape either before or after the double. An immediate bid just implies more desire to bid.

[Free]

gnasher, on Jul 3 2009, 02:08 PM, said:

In other auctions, 5m is to strong suggestion to play there and 4NT offers a choice. By analogy, therefore
5m = five cards, with only four hearts.
4MT = one or more four-card minors, and therefore either three-suited or a hand with five hearts.

Wouldn't you rather reverse your meanings? I mean, with 4♥-5m you'd be offering a choice right?

[FrancesHinden]

I agree with the principle that where both 4NT and 5m show two-suiters, 5m shows more enthusiasm for playing in the minor.

But after the auction starts 2S x 3S ?

I won't bid 4H with four hearts and a 5-card minor, I would double, showing two places to play.

So for me, 4NT is more likely to be 5-4, and 5m 5-5.

[gnasher]

Free, on Jul 4 2009, 08:10 AM, said:

Wouldn't you rather reverse your meanings? I mean, with 4♥-5m you'd be offering a choice right?

Sorry, I didn't express it very well - obviously both actions include the possibility of playing in hearts. The first line of Frances's post is a better way to put it.

[Fluffy]

I also double with 4 hearts and 5m the round before, but as helene says, maybe 0454 is possible with no desire to play 3♠X at all, 5m can be the 04(36).

Partner is highly unlikelly to pass our double at this vulnerability anyway, those spade void hands are very rare, maybe 5♥4m has more sense.

[benlessard]

I would rarely X 3S with a stiff or a void. My style is to allow for partner to pass a responsive double at the 3 level with a balanced hand. So 54 is clearly possible.

So pass= forcing

5m strong suggestion to play =5m+4M

and 4Nt = same lenght in m and M

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

no idea, but if you want to assign a meaning, than 4NT should show
a 2-suiter with longer hearts, 5m a 2-suiter with a longer minor.

I cant come up with a sensible explanation for the delayed auction,
since my pass over 4S was certainly nonforcing, ... their bidding is
strange, but that does not make the pass over 4S forcing, hence X
by partner was penalty (at least optional).

I dont think, that you can have 5-5, because if your values are outside
your long suit, you would be happy to defend.

With kind regards
Marlowe