[Hanoi5]

Suppose I lead the Ace in a suit you bid, what card would you play (standard signals) in each of these occasions:

a. KJT8653
b. JT95432
c. QJT843
d. KT98432

There are two small cards in dummy, which card would you play in each case if you:

1. wanted a continuation
2. wanted the highest suit (not trumps) to be played
3. wanted the lowest suit (not trumps) to be played
4. were not sure what you want next, just want to signal appropriately in spades

[OleBerg]

Assuming I have bid forcefully enough to tell partner I have at least six, this is a possibility:

Low = Encourage

High even = High suit
High odd = Low suit

[helene_t]

Ahem, the OP assumed standard signals, Ole.

[OleBerg]

helene_t, on Jun 29 2009, 09:38 PM, said:

Ahem, the OP assumed standard signals, Ole.

Yes, sorry.

(Unfortunately I only know what is "standard" signals in Denmark.)

[Echognome]

Somewhat a loaded question. If we are playing "standard signals" then you have to tell us what "standard" means. If you mean "High encourages, low discourages" then we can send only two signals. There may be some "standard exceptions", such as playing the Queen with QJTxx.

However, if you extend to the question of what an expert partnership might agree, playing standard signals otherwise, you might have a little more bite to your question. If partner knows I have a five card suit (e.g. I overcalled), then we play after the lead of an A or K that high means shift to the highest non trump suit. Low means shift to the lowest non trump suit. And finally a middle card says to continue the suit.

However, I wouldn't consider that "standard signals", but I also wouldn't think it an uncommon treatment.

[Hanoi5]

You bid the suit over their 1NT opening and responder is playing a partscore at the 3 level.

When I say standard signals I mean that High encourages, low discourages. This problem arose 'cause I led the suit and partner's card meant something to me but not the same to him so we ended up losing 14% MP's in the hand.

[jdonn]

At what level did I bid the suit? Did you support it? What is dummy? What is the contract? What do we lead from AK in partner's suit?

[Hanoi5]

---

Or

---

---

---

1NT 2♠ Pa Pa
3♦ Pa 3♥ Pa
Pa Pa

[karlson]

I think it's reasonably standard to play that if you've shown a lot of length in the suit, middle is encouraging, and high/low are suit preference. That's the way I first learned it.

Of course how much "a lot of llength" is will depend on context. I think 5 is almost always not enough, and 7 is always enough.

I would signal that way on this hand, especially because partner having stiff A is not at all unlikely and he will need suit preference.

[ONEferBRID]

On the FIRST lead ( the Ace ) you can only show Attitude ( Encourage or discourage ).
You cannot show an encrypted suit preference on the opening lead when following suit -- it's illegal in tournament play.
On the SECOND lead --if it is the KING you can show COUNT or Suit Preference -- with Suit Preference being obvious when there were only 2 cards in dummy.

[CSGibson]

ONEferBRID, on Jun 29 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

On the FIRST lead ( the Ace ) you can only show Attitude ( Encourage or discourage ).
You cannot show an encrypted suit preference on the opening lead when following suit -- it's illegal in tournament play.
On the SECOND lead --if it is the KING you can show COUNT or Suit Preference -- with Suit Preference being obvious when there were only 2 cards in dummy.

I don't know what you're talking about using "encrypted" suit preference, but here in ACBL land it's not illegal to play suit preference on opening lead. In fact, when I've preempted, it's common to use my lowest card to encourage the lowest suit switch, a high card for the highest suit switch, and a medium card for continuation or trump, whichever makes sense. That's also a common treatment if dummy hits with a singleton or with any other cards that indicate that an immediate switch is called for, rather than count or attitude.

Other people use suit preference as the primary signal, playing a first trick system called obvious switch, popularized by the Granovetters.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that you are making stuff up. Please cite a source showing what you are talking about.

[ONEferBRID]

You can use a "dual purpose " signal , such as Odd/ Even, on your first DISCARD
only... not on just following suit to your partner's opening lead of the ACE when Suit Preference is NOT "obvious".

With 2 small in dummy, you give Attitude or Count first--whatever your agreed system is. Suit Preference is not obvious.

However, if dummy has a singleton or void on the opening lead, then Attitude and Count become unimportant and you can then make a Suit Preference signal--normally High for the higher rank of the 2 remaining nontrump suits.

Making this up?
Review the ACBL rules.

[peachy]

ONEferBRID, on Jun 30 2009, 06:29 AM, said:

You can use a "dual purpose " signal , such as Odd/ Even, on your first DISCARD
only... not on just following suit to your partner's opening lead of the ACE when Suit Preference is NOT "obvious".

With 2 small in dummy, you give Attitude or Count first--whatever your agreed system is. Suit Preference is not obvious.

However, if dummy has a singleton or void on the opening lead, then Attitude and Count become unimportant and you can then make a Suit Preference signal--normally High for the higher rank of the 2 remaining nontrump suits.

Making this up?
Review the ACBL rules.

First you said, earlier, that it is ACBL-illegal to signal suit preference at trick one.
Now you say it is ACBL-illegal to signal suit preference except when dummy has a singleton.

What is your source? Link please.

[ONEferBRID]

When I said at "trick one" the first time it was pertaining to the author's posting showing TWO cards in dummy.

[CSGibson]

ONEferBRID, on Jun 30 2009, 06:31 AM, said:

When I said at "trick one" the first time it was pertaining to the author's posting showing TWO cards in dummy.

There's a space on the ACBL convention card for suit preference as the primary signal. You're full of crap when you say that it's illegal. Show a source.

[Phil]

I have a good rule for situations like this:

"3rd hand gives the opening leader the signal that he thinks partner needs to know"

Here, cashing a 2nd spade (except perhaps at MPs) is secondary to directing the defense. Pard isn't over ruffing dummy.

Further, there is a good chance partner's lead is a singleton Ace, our signal should be suit preference, as Karlson suggests.

Therefore:

KJT8xxx, 9xx, Jx, x: I would play the 8 as a middle card suggesting a continuation.

JT9xxxx, xxx, void, KJx: I would play the Jack, which suggests diamonds. Partner's diamond spot will tell me where the ♣A is.

JT9xxxx, xxx, x, Kx: I would play the 2. While a club shift might blow a trick, beating this hand is going to be difficult if partner does not have the ♣A.

JT9xxxx, xxx, QJx, void: Again the 2 for obvious reasons.

[jdonn]

You play the K Q or J or T from the top of a sequence (not interior sequence) involving those cards, the highest other card you have to encourage a continuation without a sequence, else the lowest card you have to discourage a continuation. I don't think suit preference factors into it (it would obviously be legal though!)

[ONEferBRID]

I stand corrected. You CAN have the "primary agreement" that the first trick show Suit Preference ( if you really want that ) and not Attitude and not Count, but you cannot have encrypted, dual meanings, such as Ole suggested ( the 2nd post ): a Low card = Enc and a High-Even/Odd = Suit Preference.

I guess it was Ole's illegal system that set me off.... and I thought the original poster was thus asking for a dual message signal at trick one.
I see now he must be asking for "either/or".

From the ACBL website:

"If the card you play to the first trick shows suit preference to the other 2 suits.. etc, etc... then check the box".

" If you only use this signal when there is a singleton or void in dummy in the suit partner led, then do not check the box".

ACBL further states in general regarding carding:
"Dual message are not approved except on each defender's FIRST discard .
Except for the first discard, only right-side-up or upside-down card ordering strategies are approved. Encrypted signals are not approved. In addition, any pair may be prohibited from playing any method ( such as suit preference systems at trick one ), when they are deemed to be playing it in a manner which is not compatible with the maintenance of proper tempo ( much like dual message signals). .... "

[gnasher]

Why would someone who lives in Denmark care whether his signals are legal in the ACBL?

[OleBerg]

gnasher, on Jun 30 2009, 07:04 PM, said:

Why would someone who lives in Denmark care whether his signals are legal in the ACBL?

Indeed, I do not care. And quite a good point, ACBL isn't the world.

But I am curious.

Would the signal I described really be illegal in ACBL???

Are they considered to be encrypted???

(In Denmark encrypted signals are allowed, but I am quite certain that the aforedescribed signal wasn't considered to be encrypted, when it was discussed whether to allow encrypted signals or not.)

Edit: What is "dual message"?