[ArtK78]

xcurt, on May 8 2008, 08:58 PM, said:

Pass.  If partner has a marginal takeout double (here's a random layout off the top of my head) we are probably going for 500 against 470 or 800 against 470 or 570.

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: MP

♠ ATxx ♥ AT8x ♦ 8 ♣ KQxx ♠ xx ♥ QJx ♦ AJTxxxx ♣ x ♠ KJ9x ♥ Kxx ♦ xx ♣ AJTx ♠ Qxx ♥ 9xx ♦ KQx ♣ xxxx

(Edit -- fixed the hand diagram, and gave everyone 13 cards)

Opposite a non-vul 3♦ opening bid, do you seriously believe that the East hand is a penalty double of 3♠? How many defensive tricks is this hand likely to take if partner has something like x xx KQJTxxx xxx?

[ArtK78]

rogerclee, on May 9 2008, 03:58 AM, said:

I passed for a very ugly -470; partner had ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AKQJ, and we could only take one club, two spades, and a diamond. Meanwhile, we are single-dummy cold for 3NT.

I thought pass was clear at the table and this was ordinary bad luck; glad to see the forums agree.

You may need two dummies at the table - one on your left, the other on your right - for 3NT to be "single-dummy cold." Unless the hearts are blocked, you have 4 heart losers and the ♦A to lose in 3NT.

[jdonn]

TimG, on May 9 2008, 11:50 AM, said:

So, it's a matter of having the values to bid 3♠ over 3♥?

What about ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AQJx

or ♠JTx ♥AKxxx ♦x ♣AKQJ?

First one 3♠, sure it's easy to see how double could work but I think it gets us to the wrong suit too often, or 3NT when 4♠ is better.

Second one is a classic double then 4♥ if partner bids 3♠ hand.

[ArtK78]

jdonn, on May 9 2008, 01:07 PM, said:

TimG, on May 9 2008, 11:50 AM, said:

So, it's a matter of having the values to bid 3♠ over 3♥?

What about  ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AQJx

or  ♠JTx ♥AKxxx ♦x ♣AKQJ?

First one 3♠, sure it's easy to see how double could work but I think it gets us to the wrong suit too often, or 3NT when 4♠ is better.

Second one is a classic double then 4♥ if partner bids 3♠ hand.

Second one is a classic double followed by 4♥?

What about KQx AKQJxxx x Ax? Isn't that a more classic double followed by 4♥? A hand too good to merely overcall 4♥ but which can handle a jump response to 4♠?

AKxxx of hearts for double followed by 4♥? What part of bidding over preempts have I missed?

[rogerclee]

ArtK78, on May 9 2008, 10:43 AM, said:

rogerclee, on May 9 2008, 03:58 AM, said:

I passed for a very ugly -470; partner had ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AKQJ, and we could only take one club, two spades, and a diamond. Meanwhile, we are single-dummy cold for 3NT.

I thought pass was clear at the table and this was ordinary bad luck; glad to see the forums agree.

You may need two dummies at the table - one on your left, the other on your right - for 3NT to be "single-dummy cold." Unless the hearts are blocked, you have 4 heart losers and the ♦A to lose in 3NT.

♠xx ♥KQx ♦AJ9xxxx ♣x, lead the ♥K against 3NT? ♦A then switch to the ♥K?

I don't understand your desire to make a post like this.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on May 9 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 9 2008, 01:07 PM, said:

TimG, on May 9 2008, 11:50 AM, said:

So, it's a matter of having the values to bid 3♠ over 3♥?

What about  ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AQJx

or  ♠JTx ♥AKxxx ♦x ♣AKQJ?

First one 3♠, sure it's easy to see how double could work but I think it gets us to the wrong suit too often, or 3NT when 4♠ is better.

Second one is a classic double then 4♥ if partner bids 3♠ hand.

Second one is a classic double followed by 4♥?

What about KQx AKQJxxx x Ax? Isn't that a more classic double followed by 4♥? A hand too good to merely overcall 4♥ but which can handle a jump response to 4♠?

No!

= Flexible, not = Monster

[ArtK78]

rogerclee, on May 9 2008, 01:23 PM, said:

ArtK78, on May 9 2008, 10:43 AM, said:

rogerclee, on May 9 2008, 03:58 AM, said:

I passed for a very ugly -470; partner had ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AKQJ, and we could only take one club, two spades, and a diamond. Meanwhile, we are single-dummy cold for 3NT.

I thought pass was clear at the table and this was ordinary bad luck; glad to see the forums agree.

You may need two dummies at the table - one on your left, the other on your right - for 3NT to be "single-dummy cold." Unless the hearts are blocked, you have 4 heart losers and the ♦A to lose in 3NT.

♠xx ♥KQx ♦AJ9xxxx ♣x, lead the ♥K against 3NT? ♦A then switch to the ♥K?

I don't understand your desire to make a post like this.

You claimed that 3NT was "single-dummy cold." But you are off 5 very obvious tricks.

Will the defense always get them? No. But is 3NT cold? Obviously not.

And is the ♥K lead unreasonable on the auction that would arrive at 3NT? I don't think so. It is obvious that there is a diamond stop to the right of the ♦A, so a diamond lead is far from clear. You only need partner to have the ♥J for the heart lead to be right (unless you could run the diamond suit). And a diamond lead could very easily give away the ninth trick. Furthermore, if the diamond suit was running, you may get a second chance after the lead of the ♥K.

This is the type of hand that sometimes results in a lead producing a swing of 9 or more tricks. Suppose decarer had bid 3NT with Kx or Kxx of diamonds and one less heart. The ♥K lead results in running 5 heart tricks and then East puts the ♦Q on the table. The defense wins 12 tricks. On a low diamond lead declarer has a diamond, 5 spades and 4 clubs. This type of result happens every so often.

[ArtK78]

jdonn, on May 9 2008, 01:48 PM, said:

ArtK78, on May 9 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 9 2008, 01:07 PM, said:

TimG, on May 9 2008, 11:50 AM, said:

So, it's a matter of having the values to bid 3♠ over 3♥?

What about  ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AQJx

or  ♠JTx ♥AKxxx ♦x ♣AKQJ?

First one 3♠, sure it's easy to see how double could work but I think it gets us to the wrong suit too often, or 3NT when 4♠ is better.

Second one is a classic double then 4♥ if partner bids 3♠ hand.

Second one is a classic double followed by 4♥?

What about KQx AKQJxxx x Ax? Isn't that a more classic double followed by 4♥? A hand too good to merely overcall 4♥ but which can handle a jump response to 4♠?

No!

= Flexible, not = Monster

So what do you recommend when you do have the monster?

And why would you bid 4♥ over 3♠? Are you expecting partner to correct to 4♠ if he is, say, 5-2 in the majors?

The idea of doubling and bidding 4♥ over 3♠ on JTx AKxxx in the majors is a truly new concept to me. I want to understand your argument.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on May 9 2008, 02:21 PM, said:

So what do you recommend when you do have the monster?

Jump to 4♥ directly. It's very rare that you have a hand so good you feel this doesn't do you justice, so it makes no sense to cater to that hand.

Quote

And why would you bid 4♥ over 3♠?  Are you expecting partner to correct to 4♠ if he is, say, 5-2 in the majors?

Precisely, therein lies the genius of it all

[han]

Josh is one of these strange people who finds it more important to get to the right game on ordinary hands like these then to be able to show an occasional monster hand.