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Penalize?

#1 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 16:06

Matchpoints, All White, First Seat

♠Qxx ♥9xx ♦KQx ♣xxxx

P - (3♦) - Dbl - (P)
?
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#2 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 16:12

Pass

I am going to guess partner is 4=4=1=4 and if we can make 3nt we can beat 3d two tricks for plus 300 and if we can only make 8 tricks we are plus 100.
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#3 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 16:13

I would bid 3♠, but that or pass, 3♥ or 4♣ could be the winning action.

This is really a problem without a clear cut right answer.

Even 3NT could be the right action - give partner AKx AT98 x AKQJx. You have 9 cold winners, the defense cannot take 5 tricks, and you probably won't beat 3♦ more than 2 tricks (give opener a classic 7222 hand with the ♦A, and one heart entry to dummy to play a diamond through your KQ).
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#4 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 16:24

ArtK78, on May 8 2008, 05:13 PM, said:

Even 3NT could be the right action - give partner AKx AT98 x AKQJx. You have 9 cold winners, the defense cannot take 5 tricks, and you probably won't beat 3♦ more than 2 tricks (give opener a classic 7222 hand with the ♦A, and one heart entry to dummy to play a diamond through your KQ).

And you expect partner to pass 3NT?
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#5 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 16:28

I would pass.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#6 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 17:00

I'm pulling to 3S. I think this will usually be a damage control situation and I think this will be our safest harbor.
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#7 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 17:34

I think this an obvious pass at matchpoints. Going a few down in 3♠ is hardly going to score well.

I'd prefer not to face this problem at IMPs.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2008-May-08, 17:42

It wouldn't shock me if pass was percentage at imps but because of brainwashing I would definitely be unable to bring myself to do it.
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#9 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 17:46

jdonn, on May 8 2008, 05:24 PM, said:

ArtK78, on May 8 2008, 05:13 PM, said:

Even 3NT could be the right action - give partner AKx AT98 x AKQJx.  You have 9 cold winners, the defense cannot take 5 tricks, and you probably won't beat 3♦ more than 2 tricks (give opener a classic 7222 hand with the ♦A, and one heart entry to dummy to play a diamond through your KQ).

And you expect partner to pass 3NT?

That is an interesting point.

But if I don't bid 3NT, then it cannot be bid. And if partner cannot pass 3NT, then we can never play in 3NT when it is right.

Of course, all I was pointing out was that 3NT could be the winning action. I did not consider that if it was the winning action, partner could not sit for it.

Quite a conundrum, isn't it?
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#10 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 19:44

It's not a conumdrun, it's a pass.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#11 User is offline   xcurt 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 19:58

Pass. If partner has a marginal takeout double (here's a random layout off the top of my head) we are probably going for 500 against 470 or 800 against 470 or 570.

Scoring: MP


(Edit -- fixed the hand diagram, and gave everyone 13 cards)
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#12 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 20:07

Pass

Which shows a good point about not getting to out-of-line with your 3-level t.o. doubles - partner may have this hand and have this decision.
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#13 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 21:41

rogerclee, on May 8 2008, 05:06 PM, said:

Matchpoints, All White, First Seat
♠Qxx ♥9xx ♦KQx ♣xxxx
P - (3♦) - Dbl - (P)
?

IMO _P = 10, 3N = 4, 3♠ = 3, 4♣ = 2.

Granny says "Takeout doubles are for taking out" :P and the views of Jlall, PClayton et al give me additional pause for thought B) but I would masochistically pass at IMPS, too :)
Guthrie.tech
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#14 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2008-May-08, 23:44

At MP and with today preempt its a clear pass.
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For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
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#15 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-May-09, 02:58

I passed for a very ugly -470; partner had ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AKQJ, and we could only take one club, two spades, and a diamond. Meanwhile, we are single-dummy cold for 3NT.

I thought pass was clear at the table and this was ordinary bad luck; glad to see the forums agree.
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#16 User is offline   Apollo81 

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Posted 2008-May-09, 07:48

I think the fact that, at the time of the double, we are a PH and RHO is not makes this an easier pass than it would otherwise be, not that it's particularly difficult in the first place.
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#17 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-May-09, 09:27

Apollo81, on May 9 2008, 05:48 AM, said:

I think the fact that, at the time of the double, we are a PH and RHO is not makes this an easier pass than it would otherwise be, not that it's particularly difficult in the first place.

Really? I was thinking the opposite. With RHO having a good hand their chances of 470 + are enhanced. We have about 1.25 defensive tricks in our hand.

We haven't been doubled yet in 3x either.
"Phil" on BBO
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#18 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2008-May-09, 10:38

rogerclee, on May 9 2008, 03:58 AM, said:

partner had ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AKQJ,

What do people think of 3♠ vs DBL with this hand?
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#19 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-May-09, 10:44

Good question, both are reasonable I think. I like double followed by 3S over 3H. I do play that 4D over the double is two places to play which makes it less likely that partner jumps to 4H on a 4-card suit.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#20 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2008-May-09, 10:50

So, it's a matter of having the values to bid 3♠ over 3♥?

What about ♠AKxxx ♥JTx ♦x ♣AQJx

or ♠JTx ♥AKxxx ♦x ♣AKQJ?
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