[gman_uk]

Hi folks,

I wonder if someone would clarify for me whether I should have accepted a 2h transfer bid from partner and bid 3S after opps 3c interference bid.

We were playing SAYC, and I opened 1NT with 15-17 balanced hand and bidding was 1n - pass - 2h - 3c

I did have 3 card spade support and 17 points but I passed as I didn't know my partners strength (my thinking was that transfer bid offers no guarantee of HCP, just 5 x spades) but I was told the correct bid was 3S. Is this correct or I have been misinformed?

Comments appreciated.

Thanks
Mike

[jillybean]

I would bid 3S, you have a fit, and a maximum.
Pass should deny 3 cards.

[DavidKok]

Generally I'd expect a 4-card suit for a voluntary raise, but a high ODR 3-card suit will do as well. Arguably it makes sense to also bid with a so-so ODR hand that has a maximum in HCP - after all, you are under pressure.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2023-March-08, 10:41, said:

I would bid 3S, you have a fit, and a maximum.
Pass should deny 3 cards.

No, pass does not deny 3 card support.
If you have 3+ cards in their suit you should be wary to bid 3S.

You should bid 3S, if you were planning to super accept the transfer, assuming you are not 4333.
If you have a xx in the overcalled suit and 3 card support and not a min you may also bid 3S.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-March-08, 10:41, said:

I would bid 3S, you have a fit, and a maximum.
Pass should deny 3 cards.

No. Just no.

As David says, I’d expect 4 card support for 3S. I think the LOTT, if used simplistically, is not as good as a lot of people think it is, but it’s justification for bidding with 4 card support, since then our ‘total’ trumps are at least 9 cards Of course, the LOTT requires that we also estimate the opps’ total trump length. If we have 9 but they have only 7, the total ‘tricks’ predicted/suggested by the Law is 16…if we make 3S, we’re better off doubling.

Of course, we don’t know much about their fit…so we’d need to look at our clubs as a start.

I’d definitely bid with 4 spades and two clubs, because I can infer 8 or 9 clubs for them most of the time.

Meanwhile, how strong is partner’s hand? One of our partnership knows, but it’s not us. What’s his club holding? He knows, we don’t. Do we trust our partner?

If we pass and he doubles, do we think that’s pure penalty or card showing, asking us to look at our hand and decide what to do, given that he shows invitational or better values?

My money is on the latter. So I can pass in tempo with two or three spades or an ugly hand with four, trusting partner to reopen.

Sure, once in a while he won’t have the values to reopen or swings a little conservative and we get a bad board. So what? Players who feel that they always have to be the decision maker for their partnership rarely have long term success. Otoh, players who let their partner contribute equally usually do quite well.

Chasing perfection on every board….that’s a great way to play losing bridge

I know…most non-experts screw up. If partner is a weak(ish) player, he or she may timidly pass out 3C when the hand belongs to us. That sort of result, if it happens with some frequency, is frustrating and often engenders the desire to act ahead of partner

In the not so long run that desire merely reinforces partner’s tendencies, since partner learns, even if unconsciously, that you overbid, so when you pass, he or she places you with a minimum and/or two card support and that reinforces the tendency to be timid.

If you’re in a casual partnership, you can often get away with taking control when you shouldn’t, but if you’re hoping to build a partnership, stay disciplined. If partner should have reopened, but didn’t, then you’ve got a teaching/learning discussion point for later.

Partnership discipline isn’t about being conservative or aggressive. It’s about staying within your methods, not worrying that every now and then one gets a poor result despite or because of staying within one’s methods, and letting partner be an equal partner. Here, you can bid with 4 card support….if your style is aggressive, you don’t need a max. If your style is conservative, you may (depending on what the hand looks like). But bidding with three card support is neither aggressive nor conservative…it’s just masterminding (I suppose something like AKx AQxx Axxx xx would be possible, tho I’d dither over bidding 3S)

[gman_uk]

Thanks for comments and the clarification.

[nullve]

mikeh, on 2023-March-08, 12:43, said:

If we have 9 but they have only 7

Not possible if opps play in their longest fit.

[pescetom]

Another interesting question is, what would Double show here?

[smerriman]

nullve, on 2023-March-08, 13:27, said:

Not possible if opps play in their longest fit.

Do you really think the opps are going to find 3♥ or 3♦ after the 3♣ overcall when that's their 8 card fit?

[mikeh]

nullve, on 2023-March-08, 13:27, said:

Not possible if opps play in their longest fit.

I’ve never seen 1N (P) 2H (3X) and have the opps find another suit, even if they have one. RHO shouldn’t usually be two suited, unless something like 6-4 or 7-5, because he can bid 2N takeout for the minors or 2S for hearts and a minor. LHO will look at his short clubs and hope that that means partner has at least 7 of them.

Analyzing worst case results by assuming that the opps can see through the back of the cards is definitely losing bridge. Maybe they have a better strain, but it’s 10-1 or more that they can’t or won’t find it.

[jillybean]

Gman/ Mike could you post the full hands please?

[helene_t]

If you want to accept the transfer you can also do so by bidding 3di or 3he. Or possibly double if that isn't agreed as penalty.

A 3sp bid should be avoided as it's generally better to play the contract from partner's hand.

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2023-March-08, 13:36, said:

Another interesting question is, what would Double show here?

What about 3-card support with some quick tricks that are useful both in defense and offense? Pure penalty opposite a partner who could easily have zero defensive tricks will be rare unless opps are crazy.

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2023-March-10, 11:07, said:

What about 3-card support with some quick tricks that are useful both in defense and offense? Pure penalty opposite a partner who could easily have zero defensive tricks will be rare unless opps are crazy.

I agree. This is not something I have ever discussed, hence my question.
My instinct FWIW would be to play 3♠ as 4 card support (any hand), X as 3 card support with some defence, pass anything else.

[mikeh]

helene_t, on 2023-March-10, 04:20, said:

If you want to accept the transfer you can also do so by bidding 3di or 3he. Or possibly double if that isn't agreed as penalty.

A 3sp bid should be avoided as it's generally better to play the contract from partner's hand.

Why is it better from partner’s hand? It’s unlikely that he has a vulnerable club holding and that we, as opener, have the equivalent of xxx in clubs and still want to commit to the 3 level


Btw, in my book, double is unequivocally penalty. Partner can pull to what he thinks is a higher scoring contract or with, say, a 7 card spade suit and a near yarb. But I’d expect something like Kx Axx Axxx AJ9x, with overcaller thinking it was a good idea to butt in with his KQ108xxx suit…maybe x KQx xx KQ108xxx. I think it a serious mistake to assume that players who bid 3C in these auctions have 9 or even 8 tricks in their own hand and, absent such assumptions it makes little sense to me to use double for anything but penalty.

Pesce’s concern is that partner may have a very bad hand with 5 spades. I share that concern. However, that concern is WHY I use double as penalty. Consider Pesce’s reasoning: I have 3 card support. I have ‘some’ defence. So I double. Partner is looking at say Jxxxx xxx xxx xx. He’s so happy that he now knows that (a) his side can’t make anything. (b) if he bids he’s probably getting doubled (does anyone think spades are favoured to be 3-2?) and © if he passes the only real issue is whether 3C x’d makes with one or two overtricks.

The nice thing about being disciplined in these auctions is that one is entitled to trust partner. We pass over 3C, he knows we don’t have a medium or better hand with 4 spades, we don’t have a very good hand (Kx or xx in clubs would be typical) and 3 nice spades, and we don’t have a penalty double. He’s allowed to bid, and will usually protect us if we own the hand.

Since we’ve defined our hand with 1N and refined that definition by passing, he (being the member of the partnership who is looking at responder’s hand) is well positioned to make the best call….certainly far better than we are with a mediocre hand that passes 3C.

To me, btw, double by responder would be optional….values, ownership of the hand, not very short in clubs. 3H would be a transfer….3D natural….I’m. I’m catering to both majors because we would not respond 2H with both majors and a hand that wants to show hearts in this auction. If you would, then you have to decide what responder’s double or 3R or 3S calls mean.

[helene_t]

mikeh, on 2023-March-10, 12:10, said:

Why is it better from partner’s hand? It’s unlikely that he has a vulnerable club holding

A void is also handy when opener has Kx. And the possibility might deter overcaller from lead8ng their suit. Bur ok that may be wishful thinking:)