[pescetom]

MP

---

I posted this in a related topic as a single hand problem, to avoid the bias inevitable from seeing both hands.
An interesting discussion about agreements ensued, but too many differences at low level emerged to make a progressive discussion of the auction really feasible or to get round to the key issue of locating the right controls.
So let's take a different approach and start from both hands, with no prior orientation of discussion as far as agreements are concerned.

How would the uncontested auction (honestly) go in your preferred partnership?



P.S. Happy New Year to all

[Cyberyeti]

1♣-2♦(FJ GF or single suited rock crusher, theoretically denies 4 spades)
2♥-3♦ (single suited slammy, suit setting, 2N would be a suit I'm not prepared to play a slam in opposite a small singleton)
3♥(cue)-5♣(voidwood)
5♥(1/4)-6♦

[DavidKok]

1♣-1♦ (Dutch Doubleton);
1♥ (nat ♣+♥ or 12-13 bal)-1♠ (asks);
2♣ (11-15 5(+)♣4♥, at most 3 spades)-2♠ (4SGF);
3♣ (4♥6♣)-3♦ (NAT);
3♥ (punt)-4♦ (NAT, forces a cue, playable suit opposite a singleton);
4♥ (control)-4♠ (control);
4NT (all suits are in, it's just aces now)-5♠(2+Q)/5NT (even number of keycards with a void) - our agreements here are unclear, normally you don't show a void in partner's suit, but either answer is forcing to at least 6♦ anyway and responder has failed to support clubs even after finding out we have 6, I think it's unrealistic to play partner for a 0=3=9=1 on the auction. So the void should unambiguously be clubs.
6♦ (off a key card) - P

If I played Exclusion I could have bid 5♣ over 3♥, but I do not. I'm afraid the auction would go the same way with ♠KQx, ♥Q, ♦AKQxxxxx, ♣x. On an enthusiastic day responder might bid 4NT instead of 4♠, praying that opener does not have exactly the ace of clubs with the king of hearts.

[mikeh]

1C 1S. Various hands, doesn’t show spades
2C. 2S. 4+ spades, longer diamonds, game forcing
2N. 3D. 6+ diamonds, 4 spades, interest in something other than 3N
3H. 3S. Cue bids. In our methods, opener is not minimum (tho close)
3N. 5C. 3N offer to play, 5C exclusion
5H. 6D. 1 keycard. Place the contract

IS usually operates as a puppet to 1N, but only when opener is balanced

[mw64ahw]

Using my usual esoteric short ♣/unbalanced ♦ with 1♠ as GI

1♣ - 1♠ GI
2♣ 5+♣3+M or 224♦5♣ - 2♥ 4+♠
3♣ 6+♣<3♠ Min - 3♦ ♦ guard GF
3NT I have the ♥ guard - 4♦ self-sustaining SI
4NT odd KCs ♥ control w. 2♠ no control - 5♣ control continued slam interest any other values?
5NT AK♥ - 6♦
Pass only the 1 KC

[pescetom]

With the only partner who plays Exclusion it might go:
1♣(2+)-1♦
1♥-3♦(GF suit setting)
3♥(ctl)-5♣(ERKCB)
5♥(1/4)-6♦
p

With the other decent one it might go:
1♣(2+)-1♦
1♥-3♦(GF suit setting)
3♥(ctl)-3♠(ctl)
4♣(ctl,!♠)-4♥(ctl)
5♦(!♠,!♣,odd kc)-6♦(kc must be ♥A)
p

As mentioned in the other topic, if partner had bid 3♠ over 3♦ I would have been sweating as this was undiscussed (but now agreed as control-bid).

[smerriman]

mikeh, are you able to complete the auction you started in the other thread with the XYZ system? After 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♦ I'm wondering how to set diamonds and have space to find controls when you run out of space for exclusion. I always find it tricky when 3NT being in play means it takes a long time to say you want a minor to be trumps, thus Soloway here.

(My auction same as Cyberyeti.)

[sfi]

Playing XYZ, I would expect the auction to go:

1C - 1D
1H - 3D (slam interest, setting suit)
3H (cue) - 5C (exclusion KC ask)
5H (1) - 6D

Similar to Cyberyeti's. You can certainly construct hands where we miss a better 6S or 6NT spot, or even reach a bad slam. But I play almost exclusively IMPs so 6D would work for us.

[mikeh]

 smerriman, on 2022-December-31, 13:10, said:

mikeh, are you able to complete the auction you started in the other thread with the XYZ system? After 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥ - 2♦ I'm wondering how to set diamonds and have space to find controls when you run out of space for exclusion. I always find it tricky when 3NT being in play means it takes a long time to say you want a minor to be trumps, thus Soloway here.

(My auction same as Cyberyeti.)

1C. 1D
1H. 2D
3C. 4D

2D art gf
4D shows solid diamonds and is an unambiguous slam try….with interest in 3N, I’d bid 3D….but not on this hand

Over 4D opener has a trivial 4H and now responder bids 4S, fetching probably 5D, but I’d prefer 4N….in minor slam auctions, I am happy to give up keycard. For me, 4N would deny the club Ace but suggest a not awful hand. With Jx AKxx x KJxxxx I don’t mind my hand. That spade Jack might be useful and the heart king can’t be bad.

So responder can bid 5C, secure in that diamonds are trump. Responder bids 5D and opener raises to slam

[blackshoe]

2!C-4!D; Natural; RKC for clubs
4NT-6!D; 2 w/o; to play.

:-)

West could start with 2!D, asking for a four card major:

2!C-2!D
2!H-2!S; 4 card major; which one?
2NT-??; hearts and a minimum; now wtf do I do?

:-)))

[pescetom]

 blackshoe, on 2023-January-01, 10:43, said:

2!C-4!D; Natural; RKC for clubs
4NT-6!D; 2 w/o; to play.

:-)

West could start with 2!D, asking for a four card major:

2!C-2!D
2!H-2!S; 4 card major; which one?
2NT-??; hearts and a minimum; now wtf do I do?

:-)))

About half the field was in 6D making, with a few outsmarting themselves in 6NT-1.
I imagine most made a seat of pants decision after inconclusive RKCB following either some 2C mess or a diamonds/clubs pissing contest

[pescetom]

 sfi, on 2022-December-31, 15:21, said:

Playing XYZ, I would expect the auction to go:

1C - 1D
1H - 3D (slam interest, setting suit)
3H (cue) - 5C (exclusion KC ask)
5H (1) - 6D

Similar to Cyberyeti's. You can certainly construct hands where we miss a better 6S or 6NT spot, or even reach a bad slam.

Similarly to Cyberyeti's and identical to mine
Yes we could reach a bad slam, although it's harder to construct such a hand for my second sequence, at least when assuming a relatively heavy opening style: maybe
982 AJ75 6 KQJT8 or similar.
I suspect a simulation would clearly reward 6D.

[Frank_lol_]

like I said in the previous thread:
1C - 1D
1H*- 2C**
2D - 5C***
5D****- 6D
* unbalanced, not 4=4=1=4 (with which we will bid 1NT)
** XYZ, relays to 2D
*** erkc
**** 1/4

I'm suprised that some people jump to 3D and then 5C. If you play that, what do you do with a H void and your partner cuebid 3H/3S?

[sfi]

 Frank_lol_, on 2023-January-10, 16:59, said:

I'm suprised that some people jump to 3D and then 5C. If you play that, what do you do with a H void and your partner cuebid 3H/3S?

Given that we play kickback, 4NT is exclusion on hearts. The sequence you provide would just be natural and to play for us, but I can also see arguments for it being exclusion with hearts being trump - I'd want good agreements before trying it out.

[Frank_lol_]

 sfi, on 2023-January-10, 18:57, said:

Given that we play kickback, 4NT is exclusion on hearts. The sequence you provide would just be natural and to play for us, but I can also see arguments for it being exclusion with hearts being trump - I'd want good agreements before trying it out.

for us, if I want to play in 5C, I will go through 2D GF. why should I jump to 5 level when my partner might have a very good 17P?
and we use 2C relay to differentiate splinter/erkc with my(responder's) suit as trump with splinter/erkc with my partner's suit as trump.

and if I jump to 3D and my partner denies slam intrest with 4D or cuebid 4C, theres no way I can do erkc anymore. ( I guess I can jump to 5S/6C, but that would be way to high)

(btw we also use 2C relay and then 4NT as quantitative, so the relay is kinda multi-functional (if that's a word))

[pescetom]

 Frank_lol_, on 2023-January-11, 08:13, said:

for us, if I want to play in 5C, I will go through 2D GF. why should I jump to 5 level when my partner might have a very good 17P?
and we use 2C relay to differentiate splinter/erkc with my(responder's) suit as trump with splinter/erkc with my partner's suit as trump.

and if I jump to 3D and my partner denies slam intrest with 4D or cuebid 4C, theres no way I can do erkc anymore. ( I guess I can jump to 5S/6C, but that would be way to high)

(btw we also use 2C relay and then 4NT as quantitative, so the relay is kinda multi-functional (if that's a word))

We use 2C-2D then 4NT as quantitative too, also 2C-2D then 3NT as choice of game with a 5332. But otherwise 2C-2D is just a kosher prelude to the denomination of a natural invite and we don't assign a meaning to any other jumps over it, although I guess it would be normal for a higher level pair to do so. I agree that 5C as natural makes no sense, but I wouldn't bet on anyone taking it as ERKCB(D,C) undiscussed either.
It's obvious that we have a very different flavour of XYZ though. For instance, 2D then 5C over partners bid is undefined for us, as with a single suit of clubs with or without slam interest we would start with a jump to 3C (game forcing).

[Frank_lol_]

 pescetom, on 2023-January-11, 11:02, said:

We use 2C-2D then 4NT as quantitative too, also 2C-2D then 3NT as choice of game with a 5332. But otherwise 2C-2D is just a kosher prelude to the denomination of a natural invite and we don't assign a meaning to any other jumps over it, although I guess it would be normal for a higher level pair to do so. I agree that 5C as natural makes no sense, but I wouldn't bet on anyone taking it as ERKCB(D,C) undiscussed either.
It's obvious that we have a very different flavour of XYZ though. For instance, 2D then 5C over partners bid is undefined for us, as with a single suit of clubs with or without slam interest we would start with a jump to 3C (game forcing).

yeah, our teaste of xyz is very different. for us, a jump to 3C is 5-5 slam intrest.
And the 5C to play is just an example, I won't do that in a real game. 2D and then 3C to show support seems good enough.
(and I'm nowhere near to “higher level”; I just stepped out of the novice zone, and I use my convention just because there's no downside. I'm still very young so why not remember some more conventions?)

[sfi]

 Frank_lol_, on 2023-January-11, 08:13, said:

for us, if I want to play in 5C, I will go through 2D GF. why should I jump to 5 level when my partner might have a very good 17P?

As would we, but we don't really feel like we need to define 5C as anything artificial so natural it remains. I can't imagine using it though. And partner can be much better than 17 - 1H includes any hand that doesn't actually want to game force over whatever looks like a 1D response.