[Echognome]

Scoring: IMP

1♣-(2♥)- X! - (3♥)
4♠ - All Pass

---

North chose to open 1♣ rather than 1NT. South chose the aggressive action of making a negative double rather than passing and NS ended up in the fine contract of 4♠. It turns out it would be rather more difficult if North opened 1NT.

Scoring: IMP

1NT - 2♣
2♥ - All Pass

---

This time South decided to open 1NT rather than 1♣ and the excellent heart game was missed. If south opened 1♣ a possible auction would be:

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 2♥
4♥

Do you find these results typical of the hand evaluation involved or were they just two boards that happened to work out with one view and not another?

[inquiry]

The first hand is a clear cut up evaluation. This hand is much too strong for a standard 1NT (15-17). It has 7 controls!!, good distribution, and AJ and AKJ and AT8x are all pluses. Adding to the value. I would open this 1♣

The second hand is a little different. It has the same hcp, with a queen subbed in for two jacks, it has the same remarkable 7 controls. But its distribution is a detriment. This one is a little more of a toss up, but those values are too prime, I guess i would treat this as too good for a 1NT opening as well.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the main difference between both hands is, that
opener holds the spades in the first hand, which makes
it possible for him to open 1C, because he has a safe
rebid, in case responder answers in 1 of a suit.

That's about all. There exist a suggestion by Klinger
somewhere, to do this, at least part of the time.
He made this suggestion in an Acol context, but the
reasoning, still holds in a 5 card mayor context.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[SoTired]

Jlall, on Jun 27 2005, 10:57 PM, said:

I would open both 1N.

Agree.

I upgrade hands that have a 5-card suit containing 4-7 hcp. I upgrade hands that have excess 10's and 9's. I upgrade hands that have little wasted strength. I upgrade hands that have excess aces. There is also the "look-and-feel" of the hand (LTC?). Neither of these 2 hands qualify.

#1, A10xx 10xx AJ AKJx, although it has 3 aces it has no 5-card suit, the excess 10H is a lone honor, the JD is wasted, and even the JC may be wasted if partner has Qxxx.

#2, A10x AKQx Axx xxx, again 3 aces, but no 5-card suit, no excess 10/9, the AKQ is in a 4-card suit, and the hand is 4333.

[whereagles]

I would also open 1NT both hands. The 1NT can cause self-preemption on occasion, but it is a very good opening on the long run.

[pclayton]

These hands are more of endorsement of a 12-14 NT than anything else.

There are some combos where a 15-17 is better and some where a 12-14 is better. Overall, I think a 12-14 is better because of its frequency and because it improves our constructive bidding.

I don't think the 1st hand is a super 17 either. The JD is immaterial and the '
JC only slightly improves the odds of a 4S contract. Even if N does open a 15-17 its very likely that S will have the tools to compete in spades once East takes some a call to show those hearts. In fairness, NS probably aren't getting to game without the competition after a 1C opening.

The 2nd example seems concocted. Would you really raise to 2H on Jxx? Very fortunate that pard has zero duplication opposite your stiff.

[cherdano]

Jlall, on Jun 28 2005, 04:57 AM, said:

I would also open the next hand 1N. 4333. On both hands you will notice one thing, xxx opp x. This is luck. The hands mesh very well, and you end up in a suit contract bringing the big power to the controls.

I am sure you don't mean it that way, but "This is luck" sounds like the pair had a lucky auction to this great contract; but of course the NS pair (in the first auction) had good grounds to assume this excellent meshing. South chose to X with subminmal values because of his singleton, and North took the push to game because he had nothing wasted opposite partner's assumed shortness, and great suit play values outside this suit.

I was East and didn't feel happy about having pushed them to game, but: wdo!

Arend

[MickyB]

pclayton, on Jun 28 2005, 03:00 PM, said:

These hands are more of endorsement of a 12-14 NT than anything else.

There are some combos where a 15-17 is better and some where a 12-14 is better. Overall, I think a 12-14 is better because of its frequency and because it improves our constructive bidding.

Interesting - I don't consider these an endorsement of 12-14 NT, and I prefer 15-17 because it improves our constructive bidding!

[david_c]

pclayton, on Jun 28 2005, 03:00 PM, said:

These hands are more of endorsement of a 12-14 NT than anything else.

Funny you should say that - I played these hands as North at another table, and opened 1♠ on the first hand playing Acol weak NT. We didn't get to game

How do you think the auction should continue after 1♠ : (2♥) : 2♠ : (3♥) ?

[MickyB]

I was acol weak NT for both of them as well. The first we bid 1♠:3♠, 4♠ with 3♠ a mixed raise, and I'd suggest the same auction ignoring the 2♥ bid Dave. On the 2nd, we bid 1♥:2♥, 2N:3N Any comments on our auction? I hated my 2NT rebid!

[mr1303]

Playing our strong club system (Dave and Mike, for when we used to play it)

The second one is ultra easy to get there.

1C (16+) 1D (<5sp)
1NT (17-19) 3S (singleton club)
4H (end)

First one

1C (16+) (2H) X (take-out)
(4H) 4S end

the 4H bid is something that opps just tend to do against us.

Playing ghastly weak NT 4 card majors, the first board the N hand is worth a maximal game try double here. So the auction

1S (2H) 2S (3H)
X P

now it's a question of what you consider the S hand worth. I think that a) the 4th trump, the stiff heart and c) a value in the 10 of diamonds makes it worth an acceptance. It's close though....

[Winstonm]

Quote

I would open both 1N. AJ doubleton and Txx are definite minuses.

For clarification, what you are saying is that without a 5-card suit, to be too good for 1N not only should the hand hold the requisite controls but also a useful doubleton, i.e. a hand playable in 3 suit contracts - or another way to put it a hand that outgrows its stated range if a fit is discovered.

WinstonM

[david_c]

MickyB, on Jun 28 2005, 03:48 PM, said:

On the 2nd, we bid 1♥:2♥, 2N:3N Any comments on our auction? I hated my 2NT rebid!

hehehe - we did the same thing! Did you get a spade lead too?

[MickyB]

Nope, a top club from AKT bare! My prayer for a blockage or a switch wasn't answered

[Winstonm]

Jlall, on Jun 28 2005, 10:46 AM, said:

The jack is just wasted. Kx, Ax, AT, KT, xx are the only "good" doubletons so i guess you can look at it that way. But the main reason AJ is bad is simply the jack could be somewhere else more useful. Consider AJTx Txx Ax AKJx. That is a much better hand.

Agreed. I was just wondering whether you felt like a tip-top 17 could be too good regardless of shape if all the cards are working or whether the controls vs. suit issue was the deciding factor. Or perhaps it is somewhat of a combination of both?

WinstonM

[tysen2k]

The first hand takes an average of 9.94 tricks in its best contract and the second hand takes an average of 9.57 tricks.

The average number of tricks that balanced hands take by HCP:

16 = 9.42
17 = 9.67
18 = 9.89
19 = 10.09

So the first hand is worth about 18.3, and the second about 16.6.

Tysen

[junyi_zhu]

Echognome, on Jun 28 2005, 02:28 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♣-(2♥)- X! - (3♥)
4♠ - All Pass

---

North chose to open 1♣ rather than 1NT. South chose the aggressive action of making a negative double rather than passing and NS ended up in the fine contract of 4♠. It turns out it would be rather more difficult if North opened 1NT.

Scoring: IMP

1NT - 2♣
2♥ - All Pass

---

This time South decided to open 1NT rather than 1♣ and the excellent heart game was missed. If south opened 1♣ a possible auction would be:

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 2♥
4♥

Do you find these results typical of the hand evaluation involved or were they just two boards that happened to work out with one view and not another?

My NT range is 14 to 16. For the first hand, one primary concern for 1NT opening is that if partner holds 4 spades, some shape and around 7 HCP, he would pass 1NT when 4S may have a good play. So it does have some merrit to open 1C even if you play 15-17 1NT. Actually the same is true for 5-3-3-2 or 3-5-3-2 shape and 17 or good 16. Partner sometimes may hold a good support in your major but not enough HCP to act over 1NT opening. So it's probably better to open 1M with 17 instead of 1NT with these hands. For my NT range, I don't really have this problem. Overally, I feel that 14-16 1NT is probably easier to handle than 15-17 1NTs.