[pescetom]

mikeh, on 2022-November-20, 15:59, said:

Btw…if I were your partner and did bid 3N over your 3H, you’d pull….only if I were declarer? I’m hurt. Or maybe you’ve seen me declare before? ��

Nooo. I was saying that if you were declarer (or if the result mattered more than having huge fun or provoking Jillybean, for that matter) I would avoid 3♥.
BTW, I suspect that a few decades ago you would have been happy to bid 3♥ all the same

[mikeh]

pescetom, on 2022-November-20, 16:30, said:

Nooo. I was saying that if you were declarer (or if the result mattered more than having huge fun or provoking Jillybean, for that matter) I would avoid 3♥.
BTW, I suspect that a few decades ago you would have been happy to bid 3♥ all the same

Believe it or not, I’m more aggressive these days than I was a few decades ago. As one ages, there’s less time left to get to bad contracts, so I don’t like to waste opportunities, lol.

Also, and more importantly, I now play generally a more aggressive method.

[jillybean]

pescetom, on 2022-November-20, 16:30, said:

Nooo. I was saying that if you were declarer (or if the result mattered more than having huge fun or provoking Jillybean, for that matter) I would avoid 3♥.
BTW, I suspect that a few decades ago you would have been happy to bid 3♥ all the same

I'm not so sure how to respond to this, and some other similar, recent posts but it certainly has me thinking of avoiding forums as a method to discuss bridge stuff.
I'm not looking for a ego boost, don't want responses.

[sfi]

pescetom, on 2022-November-20, 10:57, said:

No

2NT both minors? Always a good choice on your 2084 hands.

[LBengtsson]

jillybean, on 2022-November-20, 17:27, said:

I'm not so sure how to respond to this, and some other similar, recent posts but it certainly has me thinking of avoiding forums as a method to discuss bridge stuff.
I'm not looking for a ego boost, don't want responses.

Please stay jillybean. We need you here! Your posts are interesting discussion points. I have spent a hour searching the net for clarity on this subject. The 3♥ bid is known as a "Jump Cue Overcall or Bid" and the three examples I could find all say that the other two suits (other than the long minor suit) need to be stopped. The wikipedia entry is below and has probably been taken from the Official Encyclopaedia of Bridge.

The jump cue bid
The immediate jump cue bid of opener's suit has a specific meaning. It is typically a long totally solid minor with stoppers in the other two suits. Partner is asked to bid 3NT with a stop in the suit opened or else to bid four or five clubs (pass or correct).

I know of the Gambling 3NT opening bid where opening with a long minor does not promise these stoppers, effectively a preemptive opening bid, but this is a different circumstance bid in a competitive auction.

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2022-November-20, 12:30, said:

if he has a hearts stop then he quite likely has another suit stopped too.
Certainly not great odds, but worth a try I would think (would be interesting to simulate).
I might chicken out to diamonds if mikeh was declarer or 3NT was doubled

Partner would need a club and a heart stopper, plus half a stopper in spades, and two quick tricks. And at least one diamond. And even with Jxxx-Kx-xxx-AKxx we are likely down with a spade lead and a heart switch.

If partner knew that we have this hand so they would only bid 3NT when it makes, then it might be worth a try, but the problem is that when they bid 3NT they only promise a heart stopper, so most likely 3NT is wrong.

I might try it at favourable since a few undoubled downtricks might be fine, but vulnerable I think the risk of -200 or -300 on a partscore hand is too big.

If the purpose of 3♥ is to bluff them out of 6♥, we might as well bid 1NT. Or 3NT. Or double.

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2022-November-20, 12:30, said:

if he has a hearts stop then he quite likely has another suit stopped too.
Certainly not great odds, but worth a try I would think (would be interesting to simulate).
I might chicken out to diamonds if mikeh was declarer or 3NT was doubled

Partner would need a club and a heart stopper, plus half a stopper in spades, and two quick tricks. And at least one diamond. And even with Jxxx-Kx-xxx-AKxx we are likely down with a spade lead and a heart switch.

If partner knew that we have this hand so they would only bid 3NT when it makes, then it might be worth a try, but the problem is that when they bid 3NT they only promise a heart stopper, so most likely 3NT is wrong.

I might try it at favourable since a few undoubled downtricks might be fine, but vulnerable I think the risk of -200 or -300 on a partscore hand is too big.

If the purpose of 3♥ is to bluff them out of 6♥, we might as well bid 1NT. Or 3NT. Or double.

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2022-November-20, 12:30, said:

if he has a hearts stop then he quite likely has another suit stopped too.
Certainly not great odds, but worth a try I would think (would be interesting to simulate).
I might chicken out to diamonds if mikeh was declarer or 3NT was doubled

Partner would need a club and a heart stopper, plus half a stopper in spades, and two quick tricks. And at least one diamond. And even with Jxxx-Kx-xxx-AKxx we are likely down with a spade lead and a heart switch.

If partner knew that we have this hand so they would only bid 3NT when it makes, then it might be worth a try, but the problem is that when they bid 3NT they only promise a heart stopper, so most likely 3NT is wrong.

If the purpose of 3♥ is to bluff them out of 6♥, we might as well bid 1NT. Or 3NT. Or double.

[thepossum]

No idea really and have read some of the thread but probably 3 or 4 diamonds for me.

[nullve]

mikeh, on 2022-November-20, 11:43, said:

Run…run as hard as you can from any textbook that says that this is a 3H overcall. It’s written by someone with no clue about the game.

A textbook 3H bid looks roughly like this: Kx x AKQJxxx Axx

Can one sometimes stretch? Yes, but one should always have at least one side suit stopped and have a little something in the other. Say Qx x AKQJxxx Axx. Now as little as Jxx in spades will stop them running that suit.

Bear in mind that after (1H) 3H (p) 3N, opening leader will rarely underlead the heart ace, since he ‘knows’ that he’s likely giving up by doing so.

Found this deal from the 1981 Bermuda Bowl final

---

here.

I have no idea whether Meckwell thought they were playing standard jump cuebid overcalls.

The redouble showed doubt.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2022-November-20, 17:27, said:

I'm not so sure how to respond to this, and some other similar, recent posts but it certainly has me thinking of avoiding forums as a method to discuss bridge stuff.
I'm not looking for a ego boost, don't want responses.

My apologies if that suggested less respect and affection than I felt, semi-public text is a difficult business even with smilies.
But (like me) you can be a bit rigid at times, and I thought your OP excluded 3♥ (and maybe even 3NT as showing this hand for some) too easily.

[LBengtsson]

nullve, on 2022-November-21, 08:37, said:

Found this deal from the 1981 Bermuda Bowl final

---

here.

I have no idea whether Meckwell thought they were playing standard jump cuebid overcalls.

The redouble showed doubt.

You deserve +1 for finding an example that is different that the wikipedia entry I quoted above. But there is a subtle difference other than it was bid by Meckwell

Meckstroth is not bidding after his partner has already passed (as in jillybean's hand). South could be unlimited. Yes, Meckwell did very well on this board as the defense did not find their 5♣ tricks plus 5♥ tricks (lol). -2800 (I think that is right) for 3NTxx at white down 6 would not make a good advert for using this bid imo.

And Meckwell going down -2800 would have been a first, surely?

[pescetom]

LBengtsson, on 2022-November-21, 10:55, said:

You deserve +1 for finding an example that is different that the wikipedia entry I quoted above. But there is a subtle difference other than it was bid by Meckwell

Meckstroth is not bidding after his partner has already passed (as in jillybean's hand). South could be unlimited.

South is limited to 20

I noticed that difference too, but I think it's not as huge as it might appear at first.
The average for Rodwell is 10 HCP and the average for Jilly's passed hand partner is 8.5 HCP (limited to 11).
So Rodwell has a better chance, but both probably have room for a black suit stop if they have a hearts stop.

[mikeh]

I looked at (one version of) the Meckwell WBF CC. There is a space for describing cuebid overcalls and jump cuebid overcalls, but their otherwise detailed CC doesn’t refer to (1M) 3M. Probably partly space limitations (the WBF card allows for much more info than does the ACBL card but it’s still finite) and partly rarity of occurrence.

Whether the meckstroth 3H was systemically, for them, correct or whether he ‘used his judgement’ (as their CC notes…they often make calls that don’t meet their CC description,,..based on judgement) is unknown to me.

Whichever it was, the fact that Meckstroth bid that way is NOT at all the same as saying that bidding 3H is the correct call in any other partnership. I’ve played with and against a lot of good players. While I’ve rarely explicitly discussed this with any of them, and it doesn’t come up often, whenever it has come up partner’s always had something close to the textbook hand. I did have one long term partner who stretched with the bid….the example I gave of Qx x AKQJxxx Axx would be fine with him, but I’ve never seen, from partner or expert opp, anything like the Meckstroth bid.

Note also that they use xx of 3N to express doubt, which presumably gives them more leeway in when they do it….had Meckstroth held the prototypical hand, I suspect he’d have bid 3H and passed the double.

I did suggest to one partner that we adopt the doubt showing redouble, but he told me that anytime we bid 3N and got doubled, he already doubted we’d make it…so why double the penalty when we go down😀

Fwiw, I sympathize with the defenders…I don’t know what they led but I think it clear to lead a black card…how one guesses which is beyond me. Possession of the club king cuts both ways…it means we’re taking a lot of tricks if that’s his suit but the pass of the redouble suggests that rodwell is not wide open in a side suit,thus making a spade more attractive.

[nullve]

From the first segment of the 2022 Bermuda Bowl final between the Netherlands and Switzerland:

Open room:

---

Closed room:

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EW convention cards:

Piedra - Zimmermann
van den Bos - van Lankveld