[finesse157]

So, I could put this in the systems forum but the question is a little more broad.

I play regularly in the Acol/main rooms. When I play with my regular (tournament partner), we get abuse for playing a system that is too complicated.
The system is based on Acol+Multis with all the openings as per normal. However the initial responses may be artificial/relays.

We want to continue to play in the Acol room as we play in England but we are getting a lot of abuse/complaints about the complexity of the system.

Are we being to aggressive with the system, or are the complaints unwarranted.

NB We always alert the bids but even Advanced+ players have been known to complain/abuse us.

[mw64ahw]

For those who don't enjoy a challenge or don't have the ability to adapt, a system can be too complicated. I've faced similar comments for wanting to play a basic 2/1 opposite UK based ACOL players.

[steve2005]

post your system or a ink to it to get an opinion

[mycroft]

The Acol Room is intended for people who play Acol. The club web site is at http://www.acolatbbo.org.uk/ .

The site says

Quote

This is a friendly club for Acol players of all levels to meet on their computers, tablets or smart phone and play their favorite system.

Although most players will follow one of the Acol systems promoted by the English Bridge Union, players of any Acol based system, popular in other countries, are welcome here.

In practise, I bet, that means "we want to play/play against pretty basic Acol, and avoid all the strange stuff other people play."

If you play "all the strange stuff" in an Acol framework, I'm not surprised that you are getting pushback. I would expect that my "Acol" system (actually K/S, but still a 5cM, weak NT structure) would be fine if it wasn't for Keri, or Power Doubles, or global Fit Jump Shifts, or all the rest of the weird stuff that the people over here complain about...

I would suggest that if you're playing tournament-level bridge with a tournament-level partner and a tournament-complicated system, you should try to play in more tournament-calibre clubs (in England, if what you want is the practise against what you'd get in a tournament; just anywhere if you just want the practise); and if you're playing less serious bridge with other partners, play in the Acol Club.

I note that in the bidding and Alerting page: "Acol is a Natural Approach Forcing system". Artificial/relay responses are the opposite of "Approach Forcing". So you might not be "playing Acol" the way the club expects, and should not play there.

But the best thing to do is to ask the club ownership, and follow their recommendations.

[LBengtsson]

 finesse157, on 2021-September-28, 08:32, said:

So, I could put this in the systems forum but the question is a little more broad.

I play regularly in the Acol/main rooms. When I play with my regular (tournament partner), we get abuse for playing a system that is too complicated.
The system is based on Acol+Multis with all the openings as per normal. However the initial responses may be artificial/relays.

We want to continue to play in the Acol room as we play in England but we are getting a lot of abuse/complaints about the complexity of the system.

Are we being to aggressive with the system, or are the complaints unwarranted.

NB We always alert the bids but even Advanced+ players have been known to complain/abuse us.

Its best to learn judgement than complicated system. Against many ordinary (Acol) players, I guess, a complicated system frightens them into submission. It is like a oppressor. Precision is a complicated system but is near natural. If you are using artificial bids and relay system that is near expert level bridge so you should only be playing against expert players imo.

[nige1]

 finesse157, on 2021-September-28, 08:32, said:

... I play regularly in the Acol/main rooms. When I play with my regular (tournament partner), we get abuse for playing a system that is too complicated. The system is based on Acol+Multis with all the openings as per normal. However the initial responses may be artificial/relays ...

It seems reasonable for a club or conditions of contest to restrict permitted methods.

e.g. in an individual competition, it makes sense for the organiser to insist that all competitors play the same official system.

IMO, however, opponents, who object to your methods, should call the director, rather than complain to you.

[paulg]

The Acol Club is a long-established, friendly club on BBO and, in my opinion, is very similar to many f2f clubs.

There are not many strong players and they are not people who typically compete in national tournaments. Some may play in district/county events, but they are in the minority. It is a social club.

So I'm not surprised that they disapprove of methods that they do not easily understand or know how to defend against. Normally I'd expect them to be more courteous, but I suspect their perspective is that you keep going back to annoy them, playing in a game with a system that is definitely not Acol.

The Acol Club is not for English players, it is for Acol players. Why not play in the main club?

[pilowsky]

It appears that the people in this club "voted to take back control of their Laws and leave the Union" (to paraphrase a certain person).
Leave them to enjoy their empty shelves and freezing winters.

[finesse157]

As we play in clubs/tournaments in the UK most of our opponents play Acol.
This is the reason for favouring the Acol room. The strength of the competition is not a major issue as we mostly do it to test the system against Acol players.

[pescetom]

 finesse157, on 2021-September-29, 06:00, said:

This is the reason for favouring the Acol room. The strength of the competition is not a major issue as we mostly do it to test the system against Acol players.

Acol works against Acol and therefore it passes the test

Just kidding, I don't see why you shouldn't limit systems in a system-specific club.

[Huibertus]

For normal rooms there cannot be a system too complex, as long as it is legal. It would be like asking is my car too fast for Formula 1?

W/R to acol rooms these will have been set up to facilitate a level playing field for beginners, I can understand complaints there, even if a complicated system actually is acol based.

[scientistx]

If you give clear descriptions, then it should be less of a problem. We play a complex club system. BBOalert lets us have good descriptions automatically and written in advance.
for example:
,1D,NAT 2+ NF 10-12 BAL OR 10-15 unBAL !d
,1H,NAT 5+ NF rule of 17 (8-15) or 13-15 4414
,1S,NAT 5+ NF rule of 17 (8-15)

bboalert is an addon to browser. so when we open 1d the above text appears when we select 1d and we confirm. It can also just be automatic.

[mycroft]

 finesse157, on 2021-September-29, 06:00, said:

As we play in clubs/tournaments in the UK most of our opponents play Acol.
This is the reason for favouring the Acol room. The strength of the competition is not a major issue as we mostly do it to test the system against Acol players.

Okay, that is definitely not on.

"In the UK most of our opponents play Acol. I play this crazy Precision variant, but I mostly play in the Acol room to test the system against Acol players."

Sure, that's an exaggeration, but the point is that if you're not playing Acol - specifically if you're not playing "close enough to Acol that the Acol players in our club recognize it as Acol" - then playing in the Acol club because it's good for your testing, irrespective of the people you're testing on's wishes to not be "tested against", isn't fair.

You can play in any of the EBU clubs that you're eligible for, or the monthly Lockdown League (designed as a "friendly" competition). There will be a sufficient quantity of Acol players (in fact, probably exactly the distribution you're likely to expect in "real tournaments") to practise on, that actually did sign up to be "tested against".

Absolutely the "strength of competition" is a major issue - for the rest of the room. Which seems to not be important to you, but is for them. There are a lot more of them than there are of you.

Again, the correct response is "contact the club management, give them your card and the issues that have come up, and find out from them if you're playing Acol per their beliefs and are eligible to play in the Acol Club". I can't tell you "you're not playing Acol"; I can't tell you "you're technically playing Acol, but our players are looking to avoid what you're playing, so we would rather you take this system elsewhere", I can't tell you "this is fine; if there are complaints, ask them to send their complaints to the club management"; and neither can anyone else on the forums. It's a restricted club, only they can give a final answer about whether your system is restricted.

But in your shoes I wouldn't play there, given a similar response, when there are other options. And I'm famous for a) playing non-standard, even obnoxious systems in "regular club games" (although I always play the strong, Open games, rather than the "technically you're eligible, but the players don't want to see you, especially playing EHAA" ones), b) responding to "you just play this weird stuff to confuse us" with "no, I play this weird stuff because I like weird stuff. We do our best to not confuse you, and I'm sorry when we fail. But it's legal, so I'm playing it."

[finesse157]

Thank you for the BBOalert. I had asked this in another post so this answers that question.

 scientistx, on 2021-September-29, 08:35, said:

If you give clear descriptions, then it should be less of a problem. We play a complex club system. BBOalert lets us have good descriptions automatically and written in advance.
for example:
,1D,NAT 2+ NF 10-12 BAL OR 10-15 unBAL !d
,1H,NAT 5+ NF rule of 17 (8-15) or 13-15 4414
,1S,NAT 5+ NF rule of 17 (8-15)

bboalert is an addon to browser. so when we open 1d the above text appears when we select 1d and we confirm. It can also just be automatic.

[finesse157]

So, this is the tricky bit. The system is 4Cm, Weak NT, with standard openings at level 1. So, on the face of it, it is Acol based.
The 2 bids are Muidberg (2C=Str, 2D=Multi, 2M=Mm inter, 2N=mm weak). This structure is not that uncommon in an Acol club.

However, all responses a 1C opener are artificial with transfers and relay responses
1C
-1D/H Transfer to H/S
-1S Transfer to D or 6-9Bal
-1N Both majors or 10-12Bal
-2C Inverted
-2D Both majors weak
-2M Weak major 6+ suit.
-2N GF Bal

I take your points though about not being fair. We can tone the system down to play in the Acol room. So that might work at least in part for all parties.
In general we play in open competitions also and I've always thought the standard in the Acol club to be good enough so that people have at least been exposed to a system or 2.

 mycroft, on 2021-September-29, 09:19, said:

Okay, that is definitely not on.

"In the UK most of our opponents play Acol. I play this crazy Precision variant, but I mostly play in the Acol room to test the system against Acol players."

Sure, that's an exaggeration, but the point is that if you're not playing Acol - specifically if you're not playing "close enough to Acol that the Acol players in our club recognize it as Acol" - then playing in the Acol club because it's good for your testing, irrespective of the people you're testing on's wishes to not be "tested against", isn't fair.

You can play in any of the EBU clubs that you're eligible for, or the monthly Lockdown League (designed as a "friendly" competition). There will be a sufficient quantity of Acol players (in fact, probably exactly the distribution you're likely to expect in "real tournaments") to practise on, that actually did sign up to be "tested against".

Absolutely the "strength of competition" is a major issue - for the rest of the room. Which seems to not be important to you, but is for them. There are a lot more of them than there are of you.

Again, the correct response is "contact the club management, give them your card and the issues that have come up, and find out from them if you're playing Acol per their beliefs and are eligible to play in the Acol Club". I can't tell you "you're not playing Acol"; I can't tell you "you're technically playing Acol, but our players are looking to avoid what you're playing, so we would rather you take this system elsewhere", I can't tell you "this is fine; if there are complaints, ask them to send their complaints to the club management"; and neither can anyone else on the forums. It's a restricted club, only they can give a final answer about whether your system is restricted.

But in your shoes I wouldn't play there, given a similar response, when there are other options. And I'm famous for a) playing non-standard, even obnoxious systems in "regular club games" (although I always play the strong, Open games, rather than the "technically you're eligible, but the players don't want to see you, especially playing EHAA" ones), b) responding to "you just play this weird stuff to confuse us" with "no, I play this weird stuff because I like weird stuff. We do our best to not confuse you, and I'm sorry when we fail. But it's legal, so I'm playing it."

[mycroft]

Just to let you know, "transfer responses to 1♣" were so out there and obnoxious, and difficult to defend against that until three years ago, they couldn't be played in the ACBL except in the absolute top bracket of knockouts and in separate Flight A events (which "never" happened, except on Sunday). And you had to have a complete written structure available for the opponents. Even now, it's not allowed in games limited to 3000 MPs or lower (94.3% of ACBL members are <3000 MPs).

I'm not saying I agree with their decisions (then or now), but that's the way it is this side of the pond. I also know that this specific system structure is much more common in flight A in Europe, and has been allowed in much more "regular" events there than here. But know that this is the kind of thing that people that play system restricted events are trying to avoid. Sure, they have in fact met a system or 2 at tournaments. And they are choosing to play in the Acol club today instead of where they might "meet a system or 2".

Again, I don't know Acol, and I don't know the Acol club. And neither does anybody on this thread. You know who you have to ask, and who you have to try to convince. And it's not me.

[pilowsky]

 Huibertus, on 2021-September-29, 07:01, said:

For normal rooms there cannot be a system too complex, as long as it is legal. It would be like asking is my car too fast for Formula 1?

W/R to acol rooms these will have been set up to facilitate a level playing field for beginners, I can understand complaints there, even if a complicated system actually is acol based.

Not a good analogy.
When active suspension was introduced in Formula 1 cars did become "too fast" and the innovation was outlawed.

[pescetom]

 mycroft, on 2021-September-29, 14:23, said:

Just to let you know, "transfer responses to 1♣" were so out there and obnoxious, and difficult to defend against that until three years ago, they couldn't be played in the ACBL except in the absolute top bracket of knockouts and in separate Flight A events (which "never" happened, except on Sunday). And you had to have a complete written structure available for the opponents. Even now, it's not allowed in games limited to 3000 MPs or lower (94.3% of ACBL members are <3000 MPs).

I'm not saying I agree with their decisions (then or now), but that's the way it is this side of the pond. I also know that this specific system structure is much more common in flight A in Europe, and has been allowed in much more "regular" events there than here.

In Italy it would be a "Red" system and could be banned in internal club games.
It must have both system card and system notes.
It could be played in any regional or national tournament.
In practice, I don't know of a club that does limit "Red" systems in their internal games (although there is considerable peer pressure to desist from playing things not normal here).

[Douglas43]

 finesse157, on 2021-September-29, 10:44, said:

So, this is the tricky bit. The system is 4Cm, Weak NT, with standard openings at level 1. So, on the face of it, it is Acol based.
The 2 bids are Muidberg (2C=Str, 2D=Multi, 2M=Mm inter, 2N=mm weak). This structure is not that uncommon in an Acol club.

However, all responses a 1C opener are artificial with transfers and relay responses
1C
-1D/H Transfer to H/S
-1S Transfer to D or 6-9Bal
-1N Both majors or 10-12Bal
-2C Inverted
-2D Both majors weak
-2M Weak major 6+ suit.
-2N GF Bal

I take your points though about not being fair. We can tone the system down to play in the Acol room. So that might work at least in part for all parties.
In general we play in open competitions also and I've always thought the standard in the Acol club to be good enough so that people have at least been exposed to a system or 2.

Short answer yes, it's too complicated for an event that's presumably short rounds and designed for simple systems.

I don't play in the Acol room either, but I do play Acol. It's quite common in congresses or event like Lockdown League to play against prepared clubs and transfer responses, inverted raises, muiderberg, multi, weak jump shifts whatever But those events are six to eight board rounds with enough time to prepare.

Generally I like playing against transfer responses, I get extra space for a free double, there's a cheap cue bid plus the chance to overcall, what's not to like? However, some of these responses are not transfers, so not susceptible to overarching principles on transfer defence. The 1S is two-way (presumably with a puppet rebid of 1NT?) and might or might not show diamonds, the 1NT response is two-way and might or might not show both majors with unspecified strength.

If somebody turned up playing that in a two board round on a random club night I'd be a bit hacked off. I'm sure I could come up with a defence, but if you caught me on a grumpy night I'd make darn sure I'd bottomed it out with my partner before we touched a card. If you missed a board, while I nailed down what a double of a 1NT response means, and whether 2D over your 1S is diamonds or a cue bid, well that's life.

My suggestion would be, to test the system properly, enter it in events with longer rounds where the opponents can prepare without missing half a round. You might also offer a ready-made defence to the bids that are not actually transfers? (It used to be a requirement of an EBU licence application that you supplied a plan for the defence to use).

Good luck with the system though!

This post has been edited by barmar: 2021-October-04, 08:02
Reason for edit: take reply out of quote

[paulg]

There are a number of online events where you'd be very welcome, assuming you could get some teammates, where you'd get some good practice.

• EBU Lockdown League: weekdays at 6pm (https://www.ebu.co.u...lockdown-league, EBU members only, 8 boards per evening)
• Scottish Online League: Monday evenings (https://www.sbu.org.uk/results/sol5, SBU members only, 24 board matches)
• Scottish Bronze League: Wednesday evenings (https://sites.google...u-bronze-league, SBU members only, 16 board matches)
• Scottish Lockdown Swiss Teams (which I help run): Thursday evenings (https://sites.google...swissteams/home, open to all, free, 24 board matches, mainly Scottish)
• BBO InterCity League: Wednesday evenings (http://intercity.cloudapp.net/, next series starts in the spring, open to all, free, 16 board matches, mainly Europeans)