[paulsim]

Hi all,

Playing SAYC (MP scoring if relevant) there are reasons to repeat a major with only five cards.
Maybe not everybody agree, but assuming this is the system:


1♠ 2♣ (Just one round forcing)
2♠ 2NT
_?


Assuming 2♠ does not guarantee 6 cards, and 2NT just limit the hand and does not promise a baalance hand, there's a problem when accepting the invitation to reach the right strain.

If 3♠ should be non-forcing, just to correct with 6+ card and a weak hand to play:

Is there a good approach to accept the game invitation and show 6 card suit, so responder can choose beteewn 4M and 3N?


I'm using this procedure, but I'm not really sure if it is good enough or maybe completely wrong.


1♠ 2♦
2♠ 2N
3♥

2♠ Does not guarantee 6 card suit and deny 4 hearts
2N promises 10-12 HCP, does not guarantee balance hand
3♠ is to play (6 cards, weak hand)
3♥ accept the invitation with 6 spades, so responder can choose to play 4♠ or 3N


1♥ 2♦
2♥ 2N
3♠
3♠ confirms 6 hearts and accept the invitation, asking respondedor to choose 4♥ o4 3N


Sitl a problem when responder bids hearts:
1♠ 2♥
2♠ 2N
_?

Still 3♠ to play?
How to accept the invitation and show 6 card suit?
May use 3♣ or 3♦?


Tkanks all
Kind Regards,

[mw64ahw]

Try using this approach Advancing a Nebulous 2!C Response (bridgewinners.com)

With SAYC the key is defining what is your minimum so anything else becomes GF. I use 10-13/14hcp with the good hand being 14/15+hcp, but will then GF when I have 13+hcp.

[DavidKok]

I play a slightly different flavour of nebulous club (I have heard people call it 'multiplex 2♣', which sounded impressive enough that I've added it to the CC along with the full explanation) and we play that 2♦ is a waiting bid, promising and denying nothing in diamonds, and any other call shows extra shape and a non-minimum (although shapely hands can be non-minimum even when light on points). In other words, hands that want to 'show' bid immediately, hands that want to 'ask' default to 2♦ regardless of strength. So far this seems to work very well.

I guess in SAYC context you would want to fold all hands that are not worth a GF opposite a minimum 2♣ into the 2♦ bid, and anything else sets up a GF. So the only non-GF sequence would be 1♠-2♣; 2♦*-3♣ (or you can use 2♠ as the signoff, or something else).

[JLilly]

What is 1♠-3♥ for you? It's not very valuable as a weak jumpshift since your side has the majors. If you play it as 6+ hearts, invitational, then that hand is removed from 1♠-2♥. So when responder rebids 2N, he or she can't have six hearts, which means that opener's 3♥ isn't needed to show two-card support. So it can be six spades, accepting the invitation.

[Winstonm]

paulsim, on 2021-September-18, 03:03, said:

Hi all,

Playing SAYC (MP scoring if relevant) there are reasons to repeat a major with only five cards.
Maybe not everybody agree, but assuming this is the system:


1♠ 2♣ (Just one round forcing)
2♠ 2NT
_?


Assuming 2♠ does not guarantee 6 cards, and 2NT just limit the hand and does not promise a baalance hand, there's a problem when accepting the invitation to reach the right strain.

If 3♠ should be non-forcing, just to correct with 6+ card and a weak hand to play:

Is there a good approach to accept the game invitation and show 6 card suit, so responder can choose beteewn 4M and 3N?


I'm using this procedure, but I'm not really sure if it is good enough or maybe completely wrong.


1♠ 2♦
2♠ 2N
3♥

2♠ Does not guarantee 6 card suit and deny 4 hearts
2N promises 10-12 HCP, does not guarantee balance hand
3♠ is to play (6 cards, weak hand)
3♥ accept the invitation with 6 spades, so responder can choose to play 4♠ or 3N


1♥ 2♦
2♥ 2N
3♠
3♠ confirms 6 hearts and accept the invitation, asking respondedor to choose 4♥ o4 3N


Sitl a problem when responder bids hearts:
1♠ 2♥
2♠ 2N
_?

Still 3♠ to play?
How to accept the invitation and show 6 card suit?
May use 3♣ or 3♦?


Tkanks all
Kind Regards,

I have one major question: if you have enough to accept game opposite a possible 10-count, why are you rebidding 2S without 6?

Seems the issue is opener's rebid. If opener has 6 spades (or hearts) and enough to bid game, why not rebid 3S (3H) and then responder can pick the game?

That way, 2S followed by 3S is weak.

[paulsim]

If playing Sayc there are multiple issues if you need to rebid with 6.

Balance hands with 5 card suit 12-14 are a problem in front of 10-12 as far as I know

So, with minimun balance, the style I know rebids the major among other natural responses.

Another situation arises for example
1S 2C
3C?

If 3C is natural, responder with 11hcp doesnt know if openner is 12/13 or good 13/14

So, asuming 2NT promises 14 or good 13 and rebids doesnt show 6: thats the point, although maybe a bad one.

[Winstonm]

paulsim, on 2021-September-30, 07:17, said:

If playing Sayc there are multiple issues if you need to rebid with 6.

Balance hands with 5 card suit 12-14 are a problem in front of 10-12 as far as I know

So, with minimun balance, the style I know rebids the major among other natural responses.

Another situation arises for example
1S 2C
3C?

If 3C is natural, responder with 11hcp doesnt know if openner is 12/13 or good 13/14

So, asuming 2NT promises 14 or good 13 and rebids doesnt show 6: thats the point, although maybe a bad one.

A problem with SAYC is that it is not real accurate - easy and accurate in bridge do not coincide. Prior to SAYC it was just SA, Standard American. That required many jump bids to establish strength. Adding the YC did not alter that.

A problem with both SA and SAYC is that to increase accuracy a single rebid must be promised by a 2/1 response unless opener rebids 2NT. If you are going to promise a rebid of some sort, then a delayed support of responder's suit can be weaker than a direct raise.

[Gilithin]

paulsim, on 2021-September-18, 03:03, said:

Assuming 2♠ does not guarantee 6 cards

Let's start here - can you construct such a hand? If the response had been 2♦ then 5♠4♣ would be such a hand but opposite 2♣? This thread strikes me as the bidding theory version of GIGO.

[Winstonm]

Pure “standard” bidding required a lot of jump bids to establish strength. If responder can have 10 and you have 15 5332 you need to bid 3nt over 2c, not 2s.

[Gilithin]

Winstonm, on 2021-October-05, 18:12, said:

Pure “standard” bidding required a lot of jump bids to establish strength. If responder can have 10 and you have 15 5332 you need to bid 3nt over 2c, not 2s.

Haven't you already opened that hand 1NT Winston?

[Winstonm]

Gilithin, on 2021-October-05, 19:16, said:

Haven't you already opened that hand 1NT Winston?

I did but there are those who don’t.

[Gilithin]

Winstonm, on 2021-October-05, 19:32, said:

I did but there are those who don’t.

If they don't then they would be better off playing a system designed around that style such as SEF or Forum D. In those methods, a 2NT rebid shows 15-17 balanced and a 2♠ rebid is 6+♠ or 12-14 balanced.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

in your original seq. 2NT does not show add. strength, i.e. if opener has enough to accept the invite,
he already had enough to force to game after the 2/1,
which means he can show his 6 carder with a 3S rebid instead of a 2S.

And responder can now decide, if he prefers 3NT to 4S, if he happens to have min.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[paulsim]

Not playing 2/1 there are some rebidding problems with natural bids.

1♠____pass____2D____pass
_?

a.- AK872 A92 J82 82
b.- AK872 A92 K82 82

3NT is a good spot with hand b.- but not with a. in front of random 11HCP

So a natural 2NT 12-14 can be misleading. That's why many people bids 2NT with 14 while 2♠ with flat 12-13 so responder have a clue to do.

c.- AK872 K2 Q982 92
d.- AK872 K2 Q982 K2

A hand with support 12-14 vs 15+ is another issue if responder has 11HCP+
You need to diferenciate support with or without extra HCP in order to responder to know what to do with 10-12HCP

e.- AK872 K82 2 K982
f.- AK872 K82 2 KQ82

A natural three level bid need extra HCP to bid, so there seems to be nothing to bid but 2♠



So, as a 2/1 bid promises 10+ and forcing to 2NT you can relay with balance 14 or even a 15 not 1NT opened, and still accept de invitation.

1♠__pass__2♦__pass
¿_?____pass____2NT___pass
Game

How to be on game whith theese hands?


g.- AK982 K2 J82 K32
h.- AK982 82 A82 K82
i.- AK982 K2 82 KJ72
j.- AK9873 K2 8 AJ73 Now you want to show suit 6º and accept the invitation
k.- AKJ872 82 8 KJ82 Now you want to correct to 3♠ to play
l.- AQ9872 AK2 8 AQ8 You may have a better hand and still dont want to jump to see more about responder strengh because 2♠ would be forcing so now if you dont want to go for slam, you just want to pick a game showing 6-card suit.