[mickeymzm]

Can you consider somehow identifying the dummy during play. Put a big red bar or something to tell where the dummy is. Will help in reducing confusion. Many thanks

[Vampyr]

mickeymzm, on 2020-June-06, 07:02, said:

Can you consider somehow identifying the dummy during play. Put a big red bar or something to tell where the dummy is. Will help in reducing confusion. Many thanks

Well, if you are declarer, your name will be under your cards. The dummy will have your partner’s name.

[PhilG007]

mickeymzm, on 2020-June-06, 07:02, said:

Can you consider somehow identifying the dummy during play. Put a big red bar or something to tell where the dummy is. Will help in reducing confusion. Many thanks

The simplest way to identify the dummy is the opening leader appears on your right hand when you are dummy/
When you are a defender.dummy's hand is the only one visible.

In a real time game dummy can only see his own cards whereas on here declarers hand is also
visible to him which kinda spoils the fun somewhat

[deb_wastle]

As a virtual club director of newer players, I have been called to a table by the dummy and told: 'a robot has taken over my hand'. So it really isn't clear to newbies when they are the dummy. This has happened more than once.

Perhaps changing the background to red and changing the person's name to DUMMY would help our new players. They have been very intimidated with all this new technology.

[mycroft]

I think OP is discussing games with a robot, where if you wrong side the contract so your incompetent partner would have to play it, it pops up a big yellow text box saying "you will declare". I can definitely imagine forgetting who was dummy (which is why, I believe, in the old version, it was "rotating to make you declarer", which reminded you who dummy was, but reversed which defender did what in the auction so badly it was impossible to play.

I would agree, in that case it would be nice to know which hand the defenders can see.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2020-June-07, 11:19, said:

I think OP is discussing games with a robot, where if you wrong side the contract so your incompetent partner would have to play it, it pops up a big yellow text box saying "you will declare". I can definitely imagine forgetting who was dummy (which is why, I believe, in the old version, it was "rotating to make you declarer", which reminded you who dummy was, but reversed which defender did what in the auction so badly it was impossible to play.

I would agree, in that case it would be nice to know which hand the defenders can see.

It's not just a problem with robots and it's not just a problem for the destined dummy who suddenly finds himself declarer, and it's not just a problem for absolute beginners either, especially if you play trigger happy automatic tournaments.
It should be crystal clear which hand is dummy, to all four players.
As it should be crystal clear to declarer that he is declarer and must play from the dummy.
As it should be crystal clear to dummy that he is dummy and must not do anything, let alone play.
The current interface guarantees none of this.
A big step forwards however is using 'hand diagram' mode where the dummy is at least shaded in grey.
Unfortunately the older 'pictures of cards' mode is the default and does not shade the dummy (unless they fixed it recently).

[PhilG007]

Another thing which might confuse novices are these tournaments which are designated as "Human Declares"
In these contests the human player is partnered by a robot. If the robot becomes declarer,the human must play the hand
and this always means doing so from a "reversed" (upside down) viewpoint. I've often found this challenging and I'm an advanced player so I can
only imagine what it must be like for an beginner or an intermediate.

[King_of_D]

Look, anyone who cannot identify the dummy, despite the bidding, the opening lead AND his/her name appearing under declarer's hand, should probably look for an easier game than bridge.

[DaveRolyat]

Having played on BBO for years I kind of agree with the OP. Often when playing a hand on BBO I have to double-check and remind myself which is my hand and which is dummy. They look the same and I can see both hands, but I have to remind myself which one opps can see and which one they can't. It's not quite the same as holding 13 cards in your hand and having the other 13 laid out on the table.

[Vampyr]

Actually, your hand is always at the bottom, so if you can choose which cards to play you are declarer. If you cannot you are dummy. So as declarer you are looking at the two hands in the usual way. Also as dummy, but it doesn’t matter to dummy.

Also the contract and declarer are listed at the top of the screen.

Someone suggested making dummy’s cards appear grey. This would be nightmareish, and on a par with all the defects in functionality, security, playability and compliance with the Laws of Bridge. In fact it would be near the top of the list, as it would impair so many people’s enjoyment of playing on BBO.

[mycroft]

Well, if you play "Human declares", Vampyr, then you can choose to play cards. Even if your partner is declarer. And, in fact, you are looking at the two hands the "wrong" way when you do.

You may not play with robots, or best hand, or anything else that does "human declares", but it's very popular here (and in fact has national championships run - yeah, I'm as boggled as you are about that, but it's happened).

[pescetom]

Vampyr, on 2020-June-08, 05:03, said:

Actually, your hand is always at the bottom, so if you can choose which cards to play you are declarer. If you cannot you are dummy.

And you find that intuitive?
Even if the hand at the bottom has your name and a glaring yellow highlight which usually means you play now or get kicked out?
If I saw my cards laid out on the table and nothing glaring for me I would be a heck of lot more comfortable.

Vampyr, on 2020-June-08, 05:03, said:

Someone suggested making dummy’s cards appear grey. This would be nightmareish, and on a par with all the defects in functionality, security, playability and compliance with the Laws of Bridge. In fact it would be near the top of the list, as it would impair so many people’s enjoyment of playing on BBO.

Someone with a nickname, like you. You will also be alarmed to know that this nightmare has actually been realised in the pictures of cards view which is used and preferred by many if not most players on BBO, including stalwarts like barmar and paulg.

[Vampyr]

mycroft, on 2020-June-08, 11:13, said:

Well, if you play "Human declares", Vampyr, then you can choose to play cards. Even if your partner is declarer. And, in fact, you are looking at the two hands the "wrong" way when you do.

You may not play with robots, or best hand, or anything else that does "human declares", but it's very popular here (and in fact has national championships run - yeah, I'm as boggled as you are about that, but it's happened).

Are these events played with three robots? Are the robots able to make use of the information in the exposed hand? If so, then the hand should be rotated so that declarer’s hand is at the bottom. If this is possible.

[mycroft]

See my comment above about that. They did that at first, it was *much worse*.

You can remember "you're" dummy. It's *really really hard* to remember that it was "your" RHO that bid diamonds, because during the auction it was your LHO. This way (your hand stays at the bottom) keeps the auction oriented in your head properly.

[beowulf]

pescetom, on 2020-June-07, 13:15, said:

It's not just a problem with robots and it's not just a problem for the destined dummy who suddenly finds himself declarer, and it's not just a problem for absolute beginners either, especially if you play trigger happy automatic tournaments.
It should be crystal clear which hand is dummy, to all four players.
As it should be crystal clear to declarer that he is declarer and must play from the dummy.
As it should be crystal clear to dummy that he is dummy and must not do anything, let alone play.
The current interface guarantees none of this.

And it's not just the situations that Tom mentions. It is also confusing when you are kibitzing a table and you join the play after the opening lead has been made. Yes, it's perfectly easy to look at the contract, see that "West" (or whoever) is declarer, etc. etc. But that's no reason not to mark the dummy in some clear manner. Why make life more difficult than it needs to be?

[Vampyr]

mycroft, on 2020-June-08, 13:50, said:

See my comment above about that. They did that at first, it was *much worse*.

You can remember "you're" dummy. It's *really really hard* to remember that it was "your" RHO that bid diamonds, because during the auction it was your LHO. This way (your hand stays at the bottom) keeps the auction oriented in your head properly.

Oh yes, I see now. Of course you can always pull up the auction; that might solve the problem or might not. I don’t know, having never faced the situation.The suggested solution of making dummy’s cards grey may be suitable for people who play with robots, but would have a very negative effect on the rest of us..

[Vampyr]

beowulf, on 2020-June-08, 13:59, said:

And it's not just the situations that Tom mentions. It is also confusing when you are kibitzing a table and you join the play after the opening lead has been made. Yes, it's perfectly easy to look at the contract, see that "West" (or whoever) is declarer, etc. etc. But that's no reason not to mark the dummy in some clear manner. Why make life more difficult than it needs to be?

Because looking at the contract, which is always displayed, is difficult? I wonder if “marking the dummy” is a solution looking for a problem.

[johnu]

There is a already a perfect solution to identifying dummy during the play.

Law 41(D) specifies

Quote

After the opening lead is faced, dummy spreads
his hand in front of him on the table, face up,
sorted into suits, the cards in order of rank with
lowest ranking cards towards declarer, and in
separate columns pointing lengthwise towards
declarer. Trumps are placed to dummy’s right.
Declarer plays both his hand and that of dummy.

The original BBO Windows client managed to do this about 20 years ago. For whatever reasons, the Flash version reverted to showing dummy just like any other hand, and the current HTML5 version copies the Flash version.

[beowulf]

King_of_D, on 2020-June-08, 02:04, said:

Look, anyone who cannot identify the dummy, despite the bidding, the opening lead AND his/her name appearing under declarer's hand, should probably look for an easier game than bridge.

Guess you've forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. But I imagine that when you were a beginner, you probably didn't have to learn during a pandemic where the only games were online.

Or, maybe you'd just prefer to scare off all of those pesky newcomers and have the game die out completely in 10 years.

[Vampyr]

beowulf, on 2020-June-08, 14:47, said:

Guess you've forgotten what it's like to be a beginner. But I imagine that when you were a beginner, you probably didn't have to learn during a pandemic where the only games were online.

Or, maybe you'd just prefer to scare off all of those pesky newcomers and have the game die out completely in 10 years.

Will beginners care which is the exposed hand?.