[thepossum]

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This post has been edited by barmar: 2018-December-14, 09:56
Reason for edit: Duplicate of the next post

[thepossum]

Hi all

Hoping someone has a few ideas on this.

I wasnt alone in going straight to Blackwood and using Clubs as a proxy to investigate Aces for No Trumps but I wasnt totally happy about bidding this way. Others bid more circumspectly (via a double on first bid and waiting for North to bid 2 or 3 NT before going to 6) and arrived in 6NT or some ended up in 6C. Top scores were 6NT+1 (mostly with North as declarer) but reasonably happy with the result, just not the bidding. (Note is there an advantage that top players would know about in getting N to be declarer in this hand)

My main concern with such auctions, aiming for NT slams is that I try to avoid bidding 3NT myself (in case I am left in it by cautious partner), and in auctions like this quantitatives wouldnt work either. Is that correct.

Do you think this approach is valid for investigating NT slams. The only thing I missed out on knowing was the long C suit so maybe my approach is risky. But NT is better slam than C usually?

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regards P

Edit. PS I knew we had a weakness in Diamonds. How could we explore that better. I was just hoping for something, thinking partner had a more balanced hand so it was lucky having the KQ diamonds

[Tramticket]

Hi Possum,

There are several things wrong with this approach:
(1) You should never use Blackwood with two fast losers in a suit. Why can't your partner hold: ♠9 ♥Q42 ♦QJ ♣AQJ8542? When you hold two fast losers you should use cue-bidding first to establish whether you have a diamond control.
(2) You don't know where you are going. Do you want to play in clubs, hearts, spades or no trumps? You don't know yet, so take some time to find out about your partner's hand.
(3) If you find that you have all aces, you still don't know how many tricks you have and can't judge whether to bid a Grand Slam.

[Tramticket]

My (edited) auction would be:

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[hrothgar]

Even with the screen zoomed to the max, I can't see the entire hand diagram.
(Spades are clipped out)

Based on the source, it looks as if the hands are

s=thepossum SAKJ2H AKJ8 D83C K63
w=Robot S7543 H7653 DT64 CJ7
n=Robot S96 H42 DKQC AQ9854
e=Robot SQT8 HQT9 DAJ9752 CT

With North opening and the following auction

1C - (2D) - 4N - (P)
5D - (P) - 5H - (P)
5N - (P) - 6N - All pass

The auction feels badly flawed.

1. You have lots of HCP however, you have cut off all ability to intelligently decide on strain. (For all you know Diamonds could be wide open)

2. Blackwood gives you zero useful information. Partner must have 1+ Ace in order to open. However, if partner shows two aces you still have no idea about a source of tricks so you can't make an intelligent decision about a grand. If parter shows one ace, 6N might easily be too high.

If you want to go down this road, you might as well just punt 6N after 2D

[pescetom]

Investigating slam in a proxy suit is reasonable in general, and also in particular if NT by you would understate your hand or wrongside play. Obviously you need agreements about correcting the final denomination and what fit if any you promise in the proxy suit, and these must be disclosed to opponents.

To say more we need a microscope

[hrothgar]

The auction feels badly flawed.

1. You have lots of HCP however, you have cut off all ability to intelligently decide on strain. (For all you know Diamonds could be wide open)

2. Blackwood gives you zero useful information. Partner must have 1+ Ace in order to open. However, if partner shows two aces you still have no idea about a source of tricks so you can't make an intelligent decision about a grand. If parter shows one ace, 6N might easily be too high.

If you want to go down this road, you might as well just punt 6N after 2D

[Cyberyeti]

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Adjust the numbers just before the hv at the end to change the size of the hand diagram.

At IMPs 6♣ is a better slam, as you can try for Qxx in either hand in one major before finessing in the other.

6♣ would also be much better if partner was either 2236 or (21)37.

At MPs I suspect you'd want to be in 6N.

Problems with 4N are that partner could have something like Q10xx, Q10xx, Ax, Axx where slams are ZP, or equally Q10xx, xx, Axx, AQJx where 6♠ is cold on any normal breaks and 7 decent, but 6N is on a finesse. Start with a takeout double.

[nige1]

ThePossum seems to have posted the same hand twice.
For future reference, you can edit your original post, instead.

It is hard to work out a good way to bid these hands.
On the left is a possible but unconvincing auction.
On the actual hands, 6N is by far the best contract, however,,,
if partner had no ♦ stop, then even 3N would be in jeopardy.
if partner' held ♦Kx then it would be better if he declared

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[pescetom]

nige1, on 2018-December-14, 06:44, said:

It is hard to work out a good way to bid these hands.
On the left is a possible but unconvincing auction.
On the actual hands, 6N is by far the best contract, however,,,
if he had no ♦ stop, then even 3N would be in jeopardy.
if partner' held ♦Kx then it would be better if he declared[/hv]

With the opener holding those clubs, I don't think it's difficult to find a convincing auction (obviously not perfect).
The difficulty I see is in deciding whether to risk 6NT at MP, as analysed by Cyberyeti.

Our bidding would probably have gone:
1♣ (2♦) - DBL
3♣ - 4♦ (RKCB clubs)
4♥ (1 keycard) - 4♠ (Queen?)
5♦ (yes + K♦) - 6♣

Or in absence of a Kickback:
1♣ (2♦) - DBL
3♣ - 4♣ (forcing)
4♦ (control) - 4♥ (control)
5♣ (negative, 1 keycard) - 6♣

Either sequence exposes the missing keycard but confirms diamonds control.

(This topic is probably more I/A than N/B. I would congratulate a Novice who jumped to slam).

[smerriman]

As others have stated, the problem with Blackwood is that you won't have any idea what the correct contract is regardless of partner's response.

Question for others - suppose partner responds 2NT to your double. How do you then proceed as South? I may be mistaken but I suspect part of the reason thepossum bid Blackwood straight away is because it can be hard (impossible) to bid it later after a 2NT response. It may be a weakness in GIB's system - not sure what the right continuation is.

[masse24]

nige1, on 2018-December-14, 06:44, said:

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Your double promises both Majors?

[thepossum]

Hi all

Thanks everyone for thoughtful comments. I was playing MPs hence the interest in NT over suits. One thing I did find out using Blackwood was the Club queen so I knew I had either KQ or AkQ clubs and/or at least an ace or king in diamonds but it was risky. Also there was no way to sign off in 5 if needed.

Thx for the cue bid tips and the double which I think most people used. I think I considered it but wasn't sure of the message it would send in terms of numbers of cards in suits. However I know premature use of Blackwood was flawed not knowing the suit. Thanks all

P

EDIT. PS, sometimes when you edit a post it duplicates the post. In my original post I had the width set at only 60 pixels and edited it to 600 hence the issues with duplication and the tiny hand diagram

[pescetom]

thepossum, on 2018-December-14, 18:03, said:

EDIT. PS, sometimes when you edit a post it duplicates the post.

There are some aspects of an OP that you can't edit, but the content can be edited and I don't think you can duplicate it except by mistake In any case as the originator you have more reason than others to notice the duplicate post and an obvious responsibility to fix it, with the help of moderators.

[thepossum]

Well I didn't notice it since I thought I had edited it. And it was duplicated by a glitch in the edit code, not by me Whether I noticed it or not and had responsibility to fix it doesn't mean I need to be the target of any unpleasantness from anyone. Although I know online forums attract unpleasantness or cause it by nature of the medium. A bit more tolerance is called for when people make errors of posting ��

EDIT. Also, somebody else duplicated a post but wasnt attacked like me. I guess thats because he is one of the little group of mates that attack newcomers or outsiders

[pescetom]

thepossum, on 2018-December-15, 18:40, said:

Well I didn't notice it since I thought I had edited it. And it was duplicated by a glitch in the edit code, not by me Whether I noticed it or not and had responsibility to fix it doesn't mean I need to be the target of any unpleasantness from anyone. Although I know online forums attract unpleasantness or cause it by nature of the medium. A bit more tolerance is called for when people make errors of posting ��

EDIT. Also, somebody else duplicated a post but wasnt attacked like me. I guess thats because he is one of the little group of mates that attack newcomers or outsiders

I was just helping you (in a friendly way) to use the forum, in case you didn't understand what happened. If you're interested, the minor mess you created was cleaned up by the moderators with help from others. You might want to thank them. Nobody was unpleasant or attacked you.