[PhilG007]

The SAYC system which is widely used here on BBO stipulates that a 1NT opening bid could
contain a 5 card major suit. On quite a few occasions I've held hands where I've opened 1NT
and discovered I had a fit in the major suit and went down in 3NT whereas we could have
made game in the major suit even though the suit in my hand was of poor quality.
The question is,when should I open 1NT and when should I open 1 of the major suit?
Feedback much appreciated

[nige1]

 PhilG007, on 2016-November-17, 13:26, said:

The SAYC system which is widely used here on BBO stipulates that a 1NT opening bid could contain a 5 card major suit. On quite a few occasions I've held hands where I've opened 1NT and discovered I had a fit in the major suit and went down in 3NT whereas we could have made game in the major suit even though the suit in my hand was of poor quality.The question is,when should I open 1NT and when should I open 1 of the major suit? Feedback much appreciated

Playing SAYC or 2/1, when you hold a 5-card major in the appropriate HCP range, John Matheson recommends opening 1N with

• A poor suit e.g. ♠ J x x x x ♥ A K J ♦ K J x ♣ K x, especially with tenaces elsewhere.
• A borderline 14-15 HCP e.g. ♠ A Q J 9 x ♥ K 8 ♦ K J 9 ♣ T x x, especially if you play Gazzilli.

[jallerton]

 PhilG007, on 2016-November-17, 13:26, said:

The SAYC system which is widely used here on BBO stipulates that a 1NT opening bid could
contain a 5 card major suit. On quite a few occasions I've held hands where I've opened 1NT
and discovered I had a fit in the major suit and went down in 3NT whereas we could have
made game in the major suit even though the suit in my hand was of poor quality.
The question is,when should I open 1NT and when should I open 1 of the major suit?
Feedback much appreciated

It depends on what you have agreed with partner and, critically, whether you have a rebid available for this hand type in your system having opened a of a suit. This may depend to some extent on the range of your 1NT opening. With some partners I'll always open 1NT with 5M332 hands in range because we have no other way of bidding the hand after 1M-1NT or 1♥-1♠. With other partners I have a choice and then it depends on the hand, the major suit held, sometimes even the vulnerability and/or position.

[lycier]

 PhilG007, on 2016-November-17, 13:26, said:

The SAYC system which is widely used here on BBO stipulates that a 1NT opening bid could
contain a 5 card major suit. On quite a few occasions I've held hands where I've opened 1NT
and discovered I had a fit in the major suit and went down in 3NT whereas we could have
made game in the major suit even though the suit in my hand was of poor quality.
The question is,when should I open 1NT and when should I open 1 of the major suit?
Feedback much appreciated

There is no perfect bidding system in the current world. Opening 1nt? Opening 1♥/♠? Which is best? In General, there is no absolute good, this is the probability.

If perfer " opening 1nt with 5-card major suit" style, of course, you will risk losing 4♥/♠.
If perfer " opening 5-card major suit" to 1nt with 5-card major suit, it would better play Italy 2♣ - gazzillini convention, which isn't a part of Sayc. I wonder whether you would be willing to accept it.

For me, I like to open 1nt with 5-card major suit, especially when with worse 5-card major suit.
And I believe in Hamman's Law - " If you have a choice of reasonable bids and one of them is 3NT, then bid it. ".

[ggwhiz]

After 1nt - 2♣ - 2M - 2nt if I'm good enough to bid 3 of my major (forcing) I open 1nt, otherwise not.

If I have a doubleton in the other major I tend to open 1M at mp's especially to avoid a transfer into what may be a 5-2 fit instead of our 5-3.

Tempo/lead protection factors in where holdings like Jx (opposite ATx) are better in notrump than Jxx (opposite Ax) but carry risk factors that imo balance out.

[jwccsllc]

 PhilG007, on 2016-November-17, 13:26, said:

The SAYC system which is widely used here on BBO stipulates that a 1NT opening bid could
contain a 5 card major suit. On quite a few occasions I've held hands where I've opened 1NT
and discovered I had a fit in the major suit and went down in 3NT whereas we could have
made game in the major suit even though the suit in my hand was of poor quality.
The question is,when should I open 1NT and when should I open 1 of the major suit?
Feedback much appreciated

I rarely play SAYC, mostly 2/1, and occasionally Precision.

The basic question is what I plan to bid after partner's response when one has 5-3-3-2 distribution with the 5-card major.

Playing 2/1, responses are pretty standard after a 1♠ opening and partner's 1NT response, where a 2♣ or 2♦ response may well be a 3-card suit. It's the 1♥ opening bid that may lead to awkward situations with 5-3-3-2 distribution. These I generally prefer to open a weak 12-14 1NT where we play 3♣ as game forcing Puppet Stayman. This means our 1♥ opening bid either has a second 4-card suit or is strong enough to raise partner's forcing 1NT response to 2NT showing 15-17 HCP.

If partner responds 1♠ things are more flexible. I plan to respond 1NT with most 3=5-3-2. We play XYZ which makes partner's job easier. with 3=5-4-1 distribution, and 15-17 HCP or with 3=5-3-2 with very weak minors, I'll usually bid 2♠, and partner may make a 2NT Spiral Quantity and Quality asking bid if interested in game or slam.

Playing SAYC and a strong 15-17 1NT opening range, Opener may pass a 1NT response to 1♥ with 5-3-3-2 so what would a 2NT mean?

[1eyedjack]

 PhilG007, on 2016-November-17, 13:26, said:

The SAYC system which is widely used here on BBO stipulates that a 1NT opening bid could
contain a 5 card major suit. On quite a few occasions I've held hands where I've opened 1NT
and discovered I had a fit in the major suit and went down in 3NT whereas we could have
made game in the major suit even though the suit in my hand was of poor quality.
The question is,when should I open 1NT and when should I open 1 of the major suit?
Feedback much appreciated

I would be lying if I said that I never encounter the same problems that you outline, but that is only part of the picture, and not (in my experience) so large a part of the picture that it puts me off opening 1N. Indeed suit quality of the major is an even smaller factor, in my view.

Against these problems you must also set the problem that having opened 1M you are then unable to show (with safety) a balanced 15-17 (or whatever) in context, which I would find to be the greater concern.

[rhm]

 PhilG007, on 2016-November-17, 13:26, said:

On quite a few occasions I've held hands where I've opened 1NT
and discovered I had a fit in the major suit and went down in 3NT whereas we could have
made game in the major suit even though the suit in my hand was of poor quality.

How often did you make 3NT when you had a 5-3 major suit fit where game in the major would not have made?
How often did you make 3NT with a 5 card major because opponents did not know enough about your hand to find the best lead / defense after opening 1NT?
How often did you reach a sensible 3NT contract after opening 1NT with a 5 card major, where partner had no fit with your major but just enough strength to reach 3NT? Hard to predict whether you would have reached 3NT anyway after opening 1M but opening 1NT made it easy.

Most Bridge players do not even ask these questions and when 3NT made they hardly look how alternative methods in the bidding would have fared.
But when they go down in 3NT with a major suit fit, then they start to ponder...

Looking for superior solutions and treatments in bidding agreements is desirable, but the ones, who look for perfect solutions, tend to be losers in this game.

Rainer Herrmann

[aguahombre]

OP is asking within the context of an unsophisticated pick-up structure, so perhaps my contribution is off-topic. But, that rarely stops anyone on these forums, so:

Even if we have toys, such as 3c puppet and 2c regular (Stayman), there are certain hands which fall within the range yet we open 1M instead.

1) As a downgrade option, when we have a crappy 15 with a wide open doubleton.
2) As an upgrade option, when our 17 count is prime-card laden (i.e. suit oriented) and we are willing to pretend it is 18.

[mycroft]

Having played a weak NT in a strong NT context for many years, the idea that "if you bid something different, sometimes you play a bad contract" is - amusing.

If you don't open 1NT with 5cM, you're still playing 1NT-AP just in (or -1) where I'm playing 1m-1M; 2M making 2 trivially, frequently 3 or 4. Granted, not as often as we are, but there are other benefits. Of course, sometimes you're playing 1NT-AP making the same number of tricks as 1m-1M; 2M; sometimes you're playing 1NT-AP where they interfere in our 1m auction, and find *their* fit; sometimes they interfere over 1NT and miss the good fit that they find after 1M-X (or have to play it at the 3 level rather than 2); sometimes they ...

When you choose to make a particular call with a particular hand type, there are going to be hands where it's wrong. When you do that and you go against the field, then when it's wrong, you don't have the protection of everybody else doing the same thing. Of course, when it's right, you don't share it with everyone else. If it makes your other auctions better, then you get pluses when that happens to pay off the minuses when the other call is wrong. That's just Bidding Design 101, and the goal is to go plus in balance (or to have fun, or to push around the opponents, or to be more comfortable, or...)

[johnu]

 PhilG007, on 2016-November-17, 13:26, said:

On quite a few occasions I've held hands where I've opened 1NT
and discovered I had a fit in the major suit and went down in 3NT whereas we could have
made game in the major suit even though the suit in my hand was of poor quality.

The obvious solution is to play Puppet Stayman which allows opener to show a 5 card major suit. The big price to pay is the extra memory used to learn new sequences. A lot (large majority?) of players just play regular Stayman and don't even try to find a 5-3 major suit fit.

Puppet Stayman also has some theoretical bidding advantages in concealing opener's shape in a lot of auctions (e.g. if responder was going to invite with 2NT without a 4 card major, or if responder has a major and opener has the other major. Opener doesn't have to announce to the opponents that they have 4 cards in one of the majors when there is no possibility that they will end up in that suit.

[barmar]

If you don't play Puppet Stayman, and partner bids normal Stayman, you can jump to 3 to show a 5-card major and a maximum.

[mycroft]

That still doesn't help the 1NT-AP auctions, though.

[johnu]

 barmar, on 2016-November-18, 13:12, said:

If you don't play Puppet Stayman, and partner bids normal Stayman, you can jump to 3 to show a 5-card major and a maximum.

Which may get you too high if partner was just trying to escape from 1NT, and can give opponents more information about your hand than necessary. There is no free lunch in bridge

[aguahombre]

 barmar, on 2016-November-18, 13:12, said:

If you don't play Puppet Stayman, and partner bids normal Stayman, you can jump to 3 to show a 5-card major and a maximum.

I cannot possibly mention all the reasons that idea is ill-advised. Just one, though: give partner some slammish hand with the other major and a long minor and ask him how he liked being preempted out of the box.

[alok c]

If your hand is not highly distributional i.e no singleton/not more than one doubleton,it is more beneficial to indicate your range in opening bidding.True,sometime you may miss a major suit fit(5-3) but on balance it will be much more advantageous.

[lycier]

 barmar, on 2016-November-18, 13:12, said:

If you don't play Puppet Stayman, and partner bids normal Stayman, you can jump to 3 to show a 5-card major and a maximum.

I remenbered there was a Bell convention which used to ask 5-card major suit in the past, and it may be from the standard world.
1nt - 2♣
2nt = I have 5-card major

[barmar]

 johnu, on 2016-November-18, 15:45, said:

Which may get you too high if partner was just trying to escape from 1NT, and can give opponents more information about your hand than necessary. There is no free lunch in bridge

In my experience, hands where partner plans on passing the Stayman response are pretty rare, because of the specific shape requirements. And even if that's what he has, we're still in an 8 or 9 card fit, so things won't be too bad.

 aguahombre, on 2016-November-19, 14:28, said:

I cannot possibly mention all the reasons that idea is ill-advised. Just one, though: give partner some slammish hand with the other major and a long minor and ask him how he liked being preempted out of the box.

He can always bid the minor after my 3M bid. If he has slam aspirations, we're not too high on the 4 level.

But I do prefer Puppet Stayman to this.

[aguahombre]

 barmar, on 2016-November-19, 19:01, said:

He can always bid the minor after my 3M bid. If he has slam aspirations, we're not too high on the 4 level.

And that is clearly not a control bid for the major?

[rhm]

Every other fortnight we have a new thread about opening 1NT with a five card major.
Obviously it is a trade-off
Obviously you can fall on your nose opening 1NT with a 5 card major.

What's the point?
When you do a preempt you can not fall on your nose?
Do you suggest not to preempt any more?
Obviously there is plenty of compensation.

It would be nice people starting such threads would first do a search what has already been said about a subject they are interested in.

I will just mention here one such thread (there are many more)

http://www.bridgebas...ajor-1nt-or-1m/

It is a very old one , but it is still contains very good information about the trade-off.

Rainer Herrmann