[hirowla]

Hi,

I was looking for some suggestions on the best way to handle looking for slam after transfers in any suit. I'm thinking of hands which are too strong simply to bid game so (assuming we're playing) 16+ points. Assume that Texas transfers aren't an option for the majors (they aren't commonly used where I am).

One suggestion I've had is to bid a 2nd suit after the transfer. This works well if you have a 2nd suit but what if you don't (e.g you have a 6332 hand)? How do you handle those hands? How about handling the transfers of a minor when you have limited room.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Ian

[helene_t]

Transfer and then jump in a new suit to show a splinter.

1NT-2♦
2♥-3♠
could be a generic strong one-suiter (obviously denying a minor suit singleton since with that you would have splintered) if you don't have another way to show the strong one-suited hand.

But if you don't play Texas you probably need the direct 3♥/♠ responses to show a strong one-suited hand and then the above IS a splinter in spades.

After minor suit transfers, a new suit by responder is usually played as showing shortness. This assumed that with 5+m and 4M you would start with Stayman.

However,
1NT-2♠
3♣-3♦
is problematic since you also want to have a way to show strong hands with both minors so discuss this with p.

Finally,
1NT-2♠
3♣-3NT
probably shows a mild slam try but even so it may just show that after hearing the negative 3♣ rebid (or do you play 3♣ as positive here and 2NT as negative?) you gave up on slam. So discuss this with p.

A transfer to diamonds followed by 3NT should maybe show shortness in clubs since you can't splinter in clubs without bypassing 3NT.

But why not play Texas?

[hirowla]

 helene_t, on 2015-November-19, 03:37, said:

Transfer and then jump in a new suit to show a splinter.

I can see how the splinters can work. Mind you the harder hands are when you don't have a shortage!

Quote

1NT-2♦
2♥-3♠
could be a generic strong one-suiter (obviously denying a minor suit singleton since with that you would have splintered) if you don't have another way to show the strong one-suited hand.

But if you don't play Texas you probably need the direct 3♥/♠ responses to show a strong one-suited hand and then the above IS a splinter in spades.

But I'm guessing you can't do that if you are transferring to ♠ as that bid isn't available. Currently I use 3♥/3♠ to show an invite/GF bid with 5-5 in each major so I don't have those bids available.

Quote

After minor suit transfers, a new suit by responder is usually played as showing shortness. This assumed that with 5+m and 4M you would start with Stayman.

However,
1NT-2♠
3♣-3♦
is problematic since you also want to have a way to show strong hands with both minors so discuss this with p.

I would start those hands with Stayman indeed. I have a way to short strong hands with both minors already - 3♦ over 1NT shows a game force with both minors.

Quote

Finally,
1NT-2♠
3♣-3NT
probably shows a mild slam try but even so it may just show that after hearing the negative 3♣ rebid (or do you play 3♣ as positive here and 2NT as negative?) you gave up on slam. So discuss this with p.

A transfer to diamonds followed by 3NT should maybe show shortness in clubs since you can't splinter in clubs without bypassing 3NT.

Actually I play 2NT as the positive and 3♣ as the negative (the in-between bid is the positive).

Quote

But why not play Texas?

The main reason (which I didn't mention above) is that I play a weak NT and it's rare to even require Texas - I understand its usefulness when playing a strong NT.

[helene_t]

 hirowla, on 2015-November-19, 03:53, said:

The main reason (which I didn't mention above) is that I play a weak NT and it's rare to even require Texas - I understand its usefulness when playing a strong NT.

Yes if you play weak NT it is nice to be able to play 4M from responder's hand. But you could then play South African Texas:
4♣=hearts
4♦=spades
4♥/♠=to play

Then after the transfer you can asks for keycards.

Added advantage: Partner is not tempted to abuse Gerber since you don't play 4♣ as Gerber anymore

[hirowla]

 helene_t, on 2015-November-19, 04:22, said:

Yes if you play weak NT it is nice to be able to play 4M from responder's hand. But you could then play South African Texas:
4♣=hearts
4♦=spades
4♥/♠=to play

Then after the transfer you can asks for keycards.

Added advantage: Partner is not tempted to abuse Gerber since you don't play 4♣ as Gerber anymore

The Gerber part is very tempting - I often look at bidding disasters and say "Gerber strikes again!".

[1eyedjack]

There are some who play 1N-3M as a single-suited slam try. Not an option if you need it to show a 1-3=4-5 or similar, but not a sequence required to show a single suited invite to game if tfr then raise shows that. Really you need to look at your entire 1N structure in one sitting. Picking and choosing methods to cope with particular situations is not really the best approach.

[lycier]

 hirowla, on 2015-November-19, 03:23, said:

I was looking for some suggestions on the best way to handle looking for slam after transfers in any suit. I'm thinking of hands which are too strong simply to bid game so (assuming we're playing) 16+ points. Assume that Texas transfers aren't an option for the majors (they aren't commonly used where I am).

One suggestion I've had is to bid a 2nd suit after the transfer. This works well if you have a 2nd suit but what if you don't (e.g you have a 6332 hand)? How do you handle those hands? How about handling the transfers of a minor when you have limited room.

Any ideas?

Hirowla :
Hello.

Very good topic,I have a good solution.

This is a system engineering,you need to employ Walsh Relays which is devised and developed by Mr. Richard Walsh to describe the appropriate responses by the responder, who is seeking slam after partner has opened the auction with 1 No Trump.

After partners 1NT opening, responding hands with a long suit and which are slam oriented start with the sequence:

1NT - 2♦* (transfer to hearts)
2♥* - 2♠* (cancels the transfer - forces 2NT)
2NT (forced)

Responder can now describe their hand with:

3♣ : Broken club suit, may have another suit. (Broken means lacks 2 of top 3 honors)

3♦ : Broken Diamond suit, may have another suit.

3♥ : Good Club suit, may have another suit.

3♠ : Good Diamond suit, may have another suit.

3NT : AKQxxx or better any suit - opener bids.
Note here that I remembered Max Hardy said 3nt=solid 6-card suit with exactly 7 tricks in the hand.

I never suggest to employ any bids of 4-level showing majors.
Note if you employ this convention,1N - 3♥/♠ = broken or semi-broken long suit for slam try.

What's your loss?
You would not play 5431 convention.
What I said is my system approach, only for reference.

[10akqj]

 helene_t, on 2015-November-19, 04:22, said:

Yes if you play weak NT it is nice to be able to play 4M from responder's hand. But you could then play South African Texas:
4♣=hearts
4♦=spades
4♥/♠=to play

Then after the transfer you can asks for keycards.

Added advantage: Partner is not tempted to abuse Gerber since you don't play 4♣ as Gerber anymore

This should be quite easy, especially when you do not want to use 4!C as gerber.. 1N - 4!C asks 1N opener to transfer to !D, over which you bid 4!H or 4!S, the suit in which you want to play

[kenrexford]

The Texas solution, IMO, sucks. You lose valuable space, and it doesn't help with 5332. The transfer then 4NT sucks, too.

A better solution, after a major transfer, is to bid 3C next, no matter what you have in clubs. If partner has support for your major, you agree trumps early enough for cuebids and RKCB. If he bids 3NT, you can raise to 4NT and lose nothing. If he bids the other major, and if you have 3 there, you find a fit you would have missed. If he bids 3D to support clubs, you bid notrump. If he bids 4C to wildly support clubs, you bid 6NT.

Thus, because all works well, you don't even have to have an agreement to do this. I like to discuss it, but I use it in pickup partnerships in a pinch.

[aguahombre]

 1eyedjack, on 2015-November-19, 04:54, said:

Really you need to look at your entire 1N structure in one sitting. Picking and choosing methods to cope with particular situations is not really the best approach.

Therein is the real answer. The solutions are different when you play different ranges of opening notrump, but the problems are the same --- how to fill all the holes/cover all the bases. You cannot do this if you retain idle (unused) bids and sequences in your notrump structure. Stipulating that you don't use Texas (or something else for those 4-level jumps) means you are handicapping yourself. The very fact that a tool you possess was not used on this occasion is helpful information.

I don't believe any methods can fill all the holes, so we choose what to give up and fake it with those hands. In our case we give up the old-fashioned uses for the natural 3♣ and 3♦ response and can fit everything else in to our satisfaction. With the long minor hands not interested in slam, we just choose to sign off in the minor or blast 3nt (removable).

Won't bore you with the rest of our agreements; the point is 1-eye's point --- you can't do it piecemeal, every toy must be part of the whole thing.

[Vampyr]

 hirowla, on 2015-November-19, 03:53, said:

Actually I play 2NT as the positive and 3♣ as the negative (the in-between bid is the positive).

So what do you do with a weak hand with both minors?

Quote

The main reason (which I didn't mention above) is that I play a weak NT and it's rare to even require Texas - I understand its usefulness when playing a strong NT.

I play a weak NT and Texas, and I think it is quite useful. You say it's low-frequency, but after all it is more frequent than 1NT-4M (natural).

EDIT: and of course, when Texas is in use you gain a slam try ice transferring and then jumping to game. Most play this as a mild slam try, however.

[case_no_6]

Since you are resistant or unwilling to adopt (insist upon) conventional approaches (e.g., 4 level transfers such as Texas), the answer is that there is no way. You will have to have SOME special agreement.

For example, you might use Splinter jumps after a 2 level transfer when you have shortness. That is a conventional approach. If you don't have shortness but a long suit and slam interest, you simply have to assign some bid to show that.

I just don't see any way around it. Conventions provide additional robustness to bidding. That's why we are willing to adopt conventions in some cases and give up the natural meaning of some bids.

[kenrexford]

 case_no_6, on 2015-November-20, 15:17, said:

Since you are resistant or unwilling to adopt (insist upon) conventional approaches (e.g., 4 level transfers such as Texas), the answer is that there is no way. You will have to have SOME special agreement.

For example, you might use Splinter jumps after a 2 level transfer when you have shortness. That is a conventional approach. If you don't have shortness but a long suit and slam interest, you simply have to assign some bid to show that.

I just don't see any way around it. Conventions provide additional robustness to bidding. That's why we are willing to adopt conventions in some cases and give up the natural meaning of some bids.

If you insist on completely natural, you can use 4C as RKCB, which then allows 4NT as quantitative.

[Fluffy]

On my land we do the following

1NT-3M = natural forcing, no shortness

1NT-2x
2M-3♠/4x = splinter

If you have a 5332 you will have to bid transfer + quantitative or something like. For hands too strong you will bid transfer + any 3 card suit (usually clubs) to investigate 5-3 fit first.


Anyway if all you want to do is RKCW just go ahead and splinter on whatever suit, it doesn't matter.

For the minors, as Helene has pointed there is some problem, here is how I play:


After a transfer to clubs:

3♦ = both minors
3♥ = heart short
3♠ = spade short
3NT = ♦ short, not forcing
4♣ = natural no short
4♦ = diamond short, too strong to bid 3NT


After transfer to diamonds all is the same.

[fromageGB]

Splinter or shortage showing suggestions have already been made.

Another suggestion - arrange your NT ladder so that 1NT has a 2 point range (I play 15/16). Then (for a major) couple that with a transfer break if opener has 4 card support, and you can live happily without a slam invitation. You either ace ask or you don't.

With a minor, try transfer then raise to 4m. I play this as asking for 4 card support, with a denial bidding the next step so you can stop in 4NT or 5m, and with 4 card support opener misses that first step and gives his ace replies as if to an ace asking 4m+1 (eg kickback).

With both minors, 2♠ minor suit stayman will find a 4 card support.

With a major and a minor, after stayman or major transfer, 3m can be a slam suggestion with whatever replies you like, such as 4m showing 4 card support for responder to ace ask.

Rather than a strict "do you have 4 card support", particularly if you play a wide ranging NT strength, then the slam suggestion of 3m or 4m could mean a broader "do you fancy a slam".

[Zelandakh]

My solution is similar to Ken's but takes advantage of extra space when our suit is hearts. The basic idea is to use second round transfers and bundle additional hand types into the first transfer. Hence:-

1NT - 2♦; 2♥
------------
2♠ = bal invite; or clubs; or strong 1-suiter
... - 2NT = min, 2 hearts
... - ... - 3♣ = 4 clubs
... - ... - 3♦ = 5 clubs
... - ... - 3♥ = strong 1-suiter
... - ... - 3NT = to play (5♥332 slam invite)
... - 3♣ = 2 hearts, 4+ clubs, GF
... - ... - 3♦ = slam try agreeing clubs
... - ... - 3♥ = strong 1-suiter
... - ... - 3NT = to play
... - 3♦ = 2 hearts, 2-3 clubs, GF
... - ... - 3♥ = strong 1-suiter
... - ... - 3NT = to play
... - 3♥ = 3 hearts, min
... - 3♠ = 3 hearts, 2-3 clubs, GF
... - 3NT+ = 3 hearts, 4+ clubs, GF
2NT = invite with 4 spades
3♣ = diamonds
3♦ = 5 spades, GF
3♥ = natural invite
3♠, 4m = splinter
4♥ = mild slam try (assumes Texas)
--

1NT - 2♥; 2♠
------------
2NT = natural
3♣ = diamonds or strong 1-suiter
... - 3♦ = 2 spades, 4+ diamonds
... - ... - 3♥ = slam try agreeing diamonds
... - ... - 3♠ = strong 1-suiter
... - 3♥ = 2 spades, 2-3 diamonds
... - ... - 3♠ = strong 1-suiter
... - 3♠ = 3 spades, 2-3 diamonds
... - 3NT+ = 3 spades, 4+ diamonds
3♦ = clubs
3♥ = invite with 5 hearts
3♠ = natural invite
4♣♦♥ = splinter
4♠ = mild slam try (assumes Texas)
--

The scheme is quite condensed freeing up other bids in the structure. Before coming up with this I simply used natural 3M responses to cover the strong one-suited hands that wanted a cue auction. The above usually provides a little additional information along the way and is also typically much better for ♥+minor hands. For a natural approach this is the simplest though and not at all bad.

Minor suit transfers also use second round transfers but here my scheme is a little different from others in that I prefer to bid 2-suiters through the transfer rather than 1-suiters. It is also unusual in that only clubs gets a direct transfer and diamond-based hands start with 2♣:-

1NT - 2♠; 2NT
------------
P = natural 2NT response
3♣ = to play
3♦ = 5+♣, 4 hearts
3♥ = 5+♣, 4 spades
3♠ = 5+♣, 5+♦
3NT = to play (was looking for slam opposite a max)
--

1NT - 3m = natural, 6+ suit and slam interest
--------

One thing I will mention is that I am also someone that has almost always used a weak NT and think Texas is excellent with it. The Texas extension I use is not South African though but rather using a 4♣ response to show both majors. Over a weak NT getting this in on a weak distributional hand is almost always good. It can also be used on slam hands of course, although when using the above scheme the 1NT - 2♦; 2♥ - 3♦ route is usually to be preferred with a strong hand. Over a 2NT opening though, I like 4♣ to show diamonds in the same style as regular Texas for the majors.

In any case, I think you need to think a little bit about what you want from your bidding system. Do you want increased accuracy (through artificiality) or simplicity? Artificiality generally allows for more hand types to be shown and therefore the gradations between them are reduced. The benefits are however not enough to offset "forgets" and also carry an overhead that can affect the card play, not to mention that many find natural bidding more fun. So it is really a personal decision. The types of solution that will work for you will be affected by this choice greatly.

[Jinksy]

I don't think anyone's suggested just bidding your best three-card suit. A 6322 or 5332 with serious slam interest almost certainly has some honours in its short suit, so at least after an xfer to the major, you can usually survive if P raises your minor (which should prob show the same sort of texture that make slam a good prospect IMO).

It's not a particularly elegant solution (nor one that I would advocate long-term), but it's simple and needs no agreements (though it does help if P is ready to recognise later bids of the major as to play).

Best of all, it frees up 4♣ for Gerber