Request for a ruling
#1
Posted 2015-September-12, 21:47
In a match played privately (as the EBU does for various competitions), you're playing in the 3rd set of 4, where there's a hand where the opponents have UI which requires a ruling. You make a note of the hand and agree to speak to a director at the end of the set. The board as it happened was pushed (if this is relevant, which I think probably not).
At the end of the set, you score up and are about 50 IMPs up, and so decide it's not worth bothering a director, especially as you have a long drive home and are keen to get the match finished and done with ASAP, and so you tell your opponents accordingly.
In the 4th set, the opponents come out and swing heavily, and manage to overturn the deficit, and win by a few IMPs. Can you now demand a director call having previously rejected it?
#2
Posted 2015-September-13, 01:13
#3
Posted 2015-September-13, 01:35
Quote
Problems often arise in matches played privately when there is a dispute that
involves more than just the reading and application of the law. If you think an
irregularity has occurred which has damaged your side, you should proceed as
follows:
a Raise the matter (by, say, reserving your rights) at the time, preferably
before the board has finished, but certainly before you remove your
cards from the next board.
b Confirm your wish to have a ruling before your opponents have left the
table to score up that set of boards; if after scoring you withdraw your
request that would be an end of the matter.
A failure to take these steps puts you in the same position as a player in a
public competition who fails to call the Tournament Director at the
appropriate time.
You may still request a ruling as long as you do it within twenty minutes of the
end of the match. However, the longer the time lapse, the more difficult it is
to establish the facts and Directors, like Tournament Directors in public
competitions, may be less inclined to find damage which the player did not
appear to be aware of at the time. However, a player who could not have
known an irregularity had occurred will be in a stronger position than one
who could or should have noticed but did not mention it at the time.
I think the second bit of section b means you can't now ask for a ruling, although I can see that some might argue otherwise based on the final paragraph.
London UK
#4
Posted 2015-September-13, 10:12
gordontd, on 2015-September-13, 01:35, said:
I would argue otherwise, based on that final paragraph.
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#5
Posted 2015-September-13, 11:33
mr1303, on 2015-September-12, 21:47, said:
gordonTD quotes EBU KO regulations, which said:
Problems often arise in matches played privately when there is a dispute that involves more than just the reading and application of the law.
If you think anirregularity has occurred which has damaged your side, you should proceed as follows:
a Raise the matter (by, say, reserving your rights) at the time, preferably before the board has finished, but certainly before you remove your cards from the next board.
b Confirm your wish to have a ruling before your opponents have left the table to score up that set of boards; if after scoring you withdraw your request that would be an end of the matter. A failure to take these steps puts you in the same position as a player in a public competition who fails to call the Tournament Director at the appropriate time.
You may still request a ruling as long as you do it within twenty minutes of the end of the match. However, the longer the time lapse, the more difficult it is to establish the facts and Directors, like Tournament Directors in public competitions, may be less inclined to find damage which the player did not appear to be aware of at the time. However, a player who could not have known an irregularity had occurred will be in a stronger position than one who could or should have noticed but did not mention it at the time.
- This post should be in the Laws and rulings forum.
- The EBU regulations need simplification and clarification. They are seemingly self-contradictory. If the last paragraph refers only to alleged infractions discovered belatedly, that should be made explicit.
#6
Posted 2015-September-13, 17:58
RMB1, on 2015-September-13, 10:12, said:
I would too, and it seems impossible to me that saying "let's not call" rather than "let's not call yet" can make a difference between whether you are entitled to ask for a ruling. If only because different people may differently remember what was actually said.
#7
Posted 2015-September-14, 09:18
RMB1, on 2015-September-13, 10:12, said:
Would this not be against the Laws? The TD needs to rectify an error or irregularity regardless of the manner (s)he becomes aware of it until the end of the correction period. It seems to me that this reads that a player can ask for a ruling but they are in a similar position to having not called the TD at the appropriate time in F2F play and that in turn might mean that they have waived their right to a favourable ruling - but the TD still needs to investigate!
#8
Posted 2015-September-14, 09:59
RMB1, on 2015-September-13, 10:12, said:
If that is the case, I can't see what function is performed by the phrase "if after scoring you withdraw your request that would be an end of the matter". "End of the matter" seems fairly final to me.
London UK
#9
Posted 2015-September-14, 12:16
gordontd, on 2015-September-14, 09:59, said:
I am not sure of the function of the phrase: to me it suggests that to renew a request for a ruling is in some way unsporting/impolite rather than not allowed.
It is not clear to me that the OP confirmed his "wish to have a ruling before your opponents have left the table to score up that set of boards" and so his team may not have subsequently withdrawn that request and so the phrase in question is not triggered.
It is clear (to me) that if OP had asked for a ruling later they would be "in the same position as a player in a public competition who fails to call the Tournament Director at the appropriate time"; in a public competition, the correction period for a ruling from any stanza extends beyond the end of the match, and a request for a ruling within 20 minutes of the end of the match is "in time".
"Robin Barker is a mathematician. ... All highly skilled in their respective fields and clearly accomplished bridge players."
#10
Posted 2015-September-14, 14:20
#12
Posted 2015-September-17, 07:20
RMB1, on 2015-September-14, 12:16, said:
I agree. And the clause referred to by gordontd surely implies that if, after scoring at the end of the match, you win or lose anyway, then you can withdraw the request and that would be final. Sounds like the regulations were hastily drawn up.
#13
Posted 2015-September-17, 10:03
London UK
#14
Posted 2015-September-17, 10:19
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#15
Posted 2015-September-17, 10:24
This post has been edited by gordontd: 2015-September-17, 12:22
London UK
#16
Posted 2015-September-17, 10:45
gordontd, on 2015-September-17, 10:24, said:
But... Should one ill-considered remark really have the power to nullify a player's rights? It seems very harsh, and it seems to me that there can be be disagreement at the end of the match exactly what was said and what was meant?
#17
Posted 2015-September-17, 11:24
Vampyr, on 2015-September-17, 10:45, said:
I am not sure that the CoC should prevent the application of Law 92A, the right to appeal, nor to the right to obtain a ruling on any board before the expiration of the correction period. Law 92B seems to specify 30 minutes but it seems the RA has changed it to 20 minutes according to the link gordontd gave.
Also I do not think the phrase "decide it's not worth bothering a director" is equivalent to "withdrawing a request". It seems to be a decision not to make a request in the first place.
#18
Posted 2015-September-17, 12:23
Vampyr, on 2015-September-17, 10:45, said:
I think it's probably a regulation that needs looking at again.
London UK
#19
Posted 2015-September-17, 13:36
mr1303, on 2015-September-12, 21:47, said:
In the 4th set, the opponents come out and swing heavily, and manage to overturn the deficit, and win by a few IMPs. Can you now demand a director call having previously rejected it?
Joost
#20
Posted 2015-September-17, 15:14
gordontd, on 2015-September-17, 10:24, said:
You didn't, and I didn't say or imply that you did. I asked the question because I know that your second sentence is true, but I really don't understand why. There are other valid reasons to pursue an appeal - it is for example the only way for a player to get a correct ruling if the TD screwed up.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean