[barmar]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-November-07, 13:30, said:

I am certain that if I ask the intelligent successful people at my conservative meeting, they will provide me with information showing that Soros is trying to take the country down, or has successfully taken other countries down, and it will be equally relatively easy to check the veracity of their statements.

To me, it seems pointless for me to try to prove either side of the argument to the other side; for as you won't believe any of the articles they present me with, they won't like your sources either.

Carl Sagan had a quote that's apropos: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

A single investor taking down an entire country is a very unlikely event. The market is just too big for one guy, even a billionaire, to have that much influence. So you can't just say "People on both sides of the debate have made their case, it's pointless for me try to to prove which one is true." The ones who are making the case for the more incredible claim have a higher burden of proof.

The problem comes when you're already biased one way. Your preconceptions blind you to how incredulous some of these claims are.

[kenberg]

helene_t, on 2016-November-08, 09:22, said:

With several Western countries, including USA, being infested by fascist movements on the brink of grabbing power, maybe it helps a little to listen to the imprecions of someone who studied democracy's response to crises in places like Indonesia and Canada, where it survived, at least for now: http://www.npr.org/2...cracys-problems

I listened to most of it. The reason it is "most" rather than "all" is that the internet connection (tv, phone and internet actually) has been crashing, starting yesterday and going on today. It's back up again now, as you see.

Generally I liked what I heard until it crashed. So did Becky. At first, not so much. I'll explain.


When he started speaking of crises in Canada, I thought surely he was referring to the Quebec movement for secession. He did mention that issue, but much later. The internet crash came just a little after that point so I'll have to get back to it.

He mentioned that Canada has more foreign born citizens, percentage-wise I suppose, than France. This did not surprise me. When he compared Canada with the U.S., he switched the basis of comparison. Canada has more Syrian refugees than the U.S. Yes, I knew that, but if he is going to compare the percentage of foreign born when comparing with France, perhaps he should keep the same basis of comparison when comparing Canada to the U.S.? But ok, he is trying to make a point. This shifting of the bases of comparison weakens his point for me, but I live with it.

I largely agree with his overall thinking, and I will listen to the rest of his talk. And maybe to the other TED talks of the same collection as well. He speaks of optimism, I don't really share it, but no matter, we had better get to work on the assumption that we can handle our problems and with the intention of doing so. The alternatives are pretty grim.

[Kaitlyn S]

barmar, on 2016-November-08, 10:52, said:

The ones who are making the case for the more incredible claim have a higher burden of proof.

That in itself is open to interpretation. For example, IMO the person who assumes that a politician is NOT corrupt is trying to make the more incredible case and needs the higher burden of proof. That would probably not be the popular opinion.

[kenberg]

Kaitlyn S, on 2016-November-07, 13:30, said:

I am certain that if I ask the intelligent successful people at my conservative meeting, they will provide me with information showing that Soros is trying to take the country down, or has successfully taken other countries down, and it will be equally relatively easy to check the veracity of their statements.

To me, it seems pointless for me to try to prove either side of the argument to the other side; for as you won't believe any of the articles they present me with, they won't like your sources either.

Completely independently of whether this is a conservative view or a liberal view, I hope you will consider how it sounds to a person without strong ideological leanings. It comes across as:

"I have sources that I won't tell you about that have told me things that I am not saying that could be checked and shown to be true but nobody will believe me even though I am right".

I talk often with people who think differently than I do, on various topics and in various directions, and we have interesting discussions.Such discussions don't go like this one has been going. I actually enjoy hearing from people who think differently than I do, but this is going nowhere fast.

It is just a fact that views such as "Soros is trying to take the country down" are going to be a tough sell. For example, I have no idea how I might argue that he is not trying to do so. But I also don't know how i would argue that Paul Ryan is not trying to take the country down. I don't know how I would argue that the Clintons didn't kill Vince Foster. Or kill Justice Scalia.. or, or , or. You get the idea. It's a fool's game to try to rebut every extreme idea.

I trust that you already know that Barack Obama is gay and Michelle is a transvestite?

[diana_eva]

What's a decent source to follow results? News coverage over here is crap.

[hrothgar]

diana_eva, on 2016-November-08, 17:07, said:

What's a decent source to follow results? News coverage over here is crap.

The Atlantic has a good live blog https://www.theatlan...clinton/505442/

I'm fond of the Keeping It 1600 podcast and they're going to be live streaming on FB

I am watching PBS on the TV

[diana_eva]

hrothgar, on 2016-November-08, 17:22, said:

The Atlantic has a good live blog https://www.theatlan...clinton/505442/

I'm fond of the Keeping It 1600 podcast and they're going to be live streaming on FB

I am watching PBS on the TV

Thanks

[hrothgar]

diana_eva, on 2016-November-08, 17:24, said:

Thanks

Oh yeah, I am also streaming Rick and Morty!

Everyone get schwifty!

[Kaitlyn S]

kenberg, on 2016-November-08, 15:40, said:

I trust that you already know that Barack Obama is gay and Michelle is a transvestite?

No, I didn't know that, but I don't think I'll post that because my detractors will point out that kenberg isn't a reliable source

[Kaitlyn S]

kenberg, on 2016-November-08, 15:40, said:

I trust that you already know that Barack Obama is gay and Michelle is a transvestite?

No, I didn't know that, but I don't think I'll post that because my detractors will point out that kenberg isn't a reliable source

[Vampyr]

This is like a bad dream. Donald Trump was right, actually about the election being rigged -- by the FBI.

[MrAce]

Ok our ass is being kicked badly so far.
Oh well...

[Phil]

"Alexa, book me a one-way ticket to Canada".

I laughed at this ad.

As I sit scared sh!tless.....

[hrothgar]

Phil, on 2016-November-08, 20:49, said:

"Alexa, book me a one-way ticket to Canada".

I laughed at this ad.

As I sit scared sh!tless.....

This is way closer than I had hoped.

However, it looks as if VA is holding. PA should as well...

To me, the really scary thing is how successful both sides were at mobilizing their vote and how polarized things are. No matter who wins, we're in for some real ugliness...

[jonottawa]

Hope everyone else is enjoying this glorious evening as much as I am!

[Al_U_Card]

Some more than others....

[Al_U_Card]

Michigan hangs in the balance and could be decisive.

[jonottawa]

I wonder if the MSM is still making it seem close just to avoid looking so foolish or because they want people to keep watching.

The fat lady has sung.

http://www.nytimes.c...ecast/president

[Al_U_Card]

Az is going DT. No need for hanging chads this time in Fla but it is still very close.

[kenberg]

This is not going well. Well, not from my view. Bedtime for me, perhaps a miracle will occur while I sleep. I have always wished for the best for every president, and I am too old to change that now. But I am not happy.