[kenberg]

hrothgar, on 2016-August-14, 12:23, said:

It really sucks when the worm turns...

From my perspective, when I look at Trump voters I see a bunch of white trash that was able to console themselves that at least they had it better than the blacks, the Mexicans, and the gays.
Now they're being treated in exactly the same way, and they're finding out that it really sucks.

Sadly, rather than trying to elevate things for all those at the bottom of the pyramid, their response is more akin to crabs in a basket...

Still, the article Winston cited is speaking of relatively well paid blue collar workers. This is your idea of white trash?

This seems to support my general view. The well paid blue collar worker feels that his life is disrespected and he is tired of it.

Whether he is or is not white trash depends, I suppose, on attitudes and definitions. But if we are seeking to explain support for Trump, as the article presumed to do, I think lumping a well paid blue collar worker supporting a family in with white trash goes a long way to explaining where and how Trump is getting the votes.

[barmar]

kenberg, on 2016-August-14, 13:08, said:

Still, the article Winston cited is speaking of relatively well paid blue collar workers. This is your idea of white trash?

Do you remember the program "Roseanne"? I think that family would fit into that description. The Bunkers from "All in the Family" as well. I'm sure Archie would love Trump; Gloria and Mike would feel the Bern, and Edith would favor Hillary, but probably not tell Archie about it.

[Winstonm]

double post.

[Winstonm]

kenberg, on 2016-August-14, 11:37, said:

Actually, I am pretty interested in just what is going on and I do not think any one explanation handles it. The part I found interesting is that the Trump support from blue collar workers is more pronounced at the higher income levels. Maybe this can be squeezed into a white isolation argument but I think it would require some severe squeezing.

The article refers to a paper, here is part of it.
http://poseidon01.ss...4026072&EXT=pdf



This covers a lot of ground. It also is a statistical analysis of who but not of why. When I read about what the Trump supporters say, the word condescension frequently comes up. They feel that their lives are disrespected and they are tired of it.
[/size][/size]

I think this is telling. (my emhphasis)

Quote

Trump supporters are much more likely to be retired. Trump supporters live in smaller commuting zones with lower college attainment rates, a somewhat higher share of jobs in manufacturing, higher mortality rates for middle-aged whites, and a higher segregation. There is no statistically significant difference between Trump supporters and non-supporters with respect to the median household income of their zip-code, a proxy for neighborhood conditions.

Like Jose Ferrer questioning Bogart (Captain Queeg), I don't think the Navy promotes cowards so there must be another reason. Likewise, I don't think all Trump supporters can be idiots, so there must be another reason, and it must be an irrational one as there is no good rational reason to be in favor of Trump.

The best reason I have seen proposed thus far is the authoritarian hypothesis, as data show it to have a high correlation of projection of support to actual votes cast, and it is based on irrational fear of change, etc.

[kenberg]

a partial duplicate. I seem to have pressed a wrong button.

[kenberg]

barmar, on 2016-August-14, 13:41, said:

Do you remember the program "Roseanne"? I think that family would fit into that description. The Bunkers from "All in the Family" as well. I'm sure Archie would love Trump; Gloria and Mike would feel the Bern, and Edith would favor Hillary, but probably not tell Archie about it.

It's been a long long time.
Right. Married, house, children, job, not broke.

Of course in both cases the families were exaggerated for humor, but the humor worked because they were recognizable. Or were, at the time recognizable.

I can remember, I think I am right, that All in the Family was Saturday at 8pm. Roseanne I don't know, but Monday or Tuesday I think.
It is probably correct that this difference in memory reflects my greater enthusiasm for All in the Family. But I generally enjoyed both.

I don't know if I am right but it seems to me family life has gone to extremes here. The Post had an interesting article by a local high school graduate reflecting on her challenges applying to college.
https://www.washingt...cation-process/
She looked into many things, thought through what she liked, coped with disappointment, made her choice.
But I know of more than a few other stories where the kids just can't seem to get it together.
Of course it has always been this way, but it seems more extreme today.
Those who can cope have more options than in times past, but for many it isn't working at all.

[Trinidad]

I don't think that there is a causal relation between early death and Trump support. I think there is a correlation between high income blue collar (i.e. hard working blue collar, too hard for health purposes) and early death. Does anybody find it surprising that a factory worker doing extra hours, on average, will die younger than the nurse, teacher or accountant?

Rik

[kenberg]

Winstonm, on 2016-August-14, 14:19, said:

I think this is telling. (my emhphasis)


Like Jose Ferrer questioning Bogart (Captain Queeg), I don't think the Navy promotes cowards so there must be another reason. Likewise, I don't think all Trump supporters can be idiots, so there must be another reason, and it must be an irrational one as there is no good rational reason to be in favor of Trump.

The best reason I have seen proposed thus far is the authoritarian hypothesis, as data show it to have a high correlation of projection of support to actual votes cast, and it is based on irrational fear of change, etc.

We can agree on at least some of this. I think personality plays a big role in our political choices, bigger than is sometimes thought. For example, I never needed to hear what Trump's policies were. I don't trust him, I don't like him, I won't vote for him. If someone insists, I can probably supply many rational reasons, but fundamentally I see the guy as an egotistical jerk. This column in the Post takes a similar view. I don't know what took him so long.

Authoritarianism is relevant, but I think it needs refinement. Trump seems to be selling belligerence more than ordered structure. This is apt to appeal to the perennially teed off and that's not quite the same as authoritarianism.

Anyway, got to run, but we can agree that it has to be something irrational.

[hrothgar]

kenberg, on 2016-August-14, 13:08, said:

Still, the article Winston cited is speaking of relatively well paid blue collar workers. This is your idea of white trash?

This seems to support my general view. The well paid blue collar worker feels that his life is disrespected and he is tired of it.

Whether he is or is not white trash depends, I suppose, on attitudes and definitions. But if we are seeking to explain support for Trump, as the article presumed to do, I think lumping a well paid blue collar worker supporting a family in with white trash goes a long way to explaining where and how Trump is getting the votes.

I view "White trash" as primarily an identification of culture rather than income.

if you have time, I recommend that you read "Hillbilly Elegy"

[kenberg]

hrothgar, on 2016-August-15, 06:45, said:

I view "White trash" as primarily an identification of culture rather than income.

if you have time, I recommend that you read "Hillbilly Elegy"

I just might. My first thought was "Never heard of it" but then I went to a NYT book review and realized that I had heard of it, I forget where, and it sounded interesting.

I like the closing of the Review:

Quote

Mr. Vance doesn’t have all the answers. But he’s advancing the conversation.

I think the issues described are central to our times. I'll quote from the review, which quotes from the book.

Quote

“Hillbilly Elegy,” in my mind, divides into two components: the family stories Mr. Vance tells — most of which are no doubt better experienced on the page than they were in real life — and the questions he raises. Chief among them: How much should he hold his hillbilly kin responsible for their own misfortunes?

In Mr. Vance’s estimation, the answer is: a lot. Economic insecurity, he’s convinced, accounts for only a small part of his community’s problems; the much larger issue is hillbilly culture itself. Though proud of it in many ways, he’s also convinced that it “increasingly encourages social decay instead of counteracting it.”

His frustration with the nonworking white poor is especially acute. He recalls being a cashier at a Middletown grocery store and watching resentfully as his neighbors, who had creatively gamed the welfare system, jabbered on their cellphones as they were going through the checkout line.He could not afford a cellphone.

My own early life was much, much gentler and stabler than his, but still I know something of what he is talking about. No doubt many recognize aspects of his life. We have to somehow get this right. I think "frustration with the nonworking white poor" is the right phrase above, a much better word than "blame". I believe in helping, I also believe some people are very difficult to effectively help. My short summary is that I believe in helping people to need less help in the future. And that is sometimes much easier to say than to do.





Mr. Vance finished Yale Law School. Most won't. And they needn't. My father finished eight grade and became self-supporting. Even if it is not as easy now for someone who finishes eighth grade to be self-supporting, it still requires far less than a law degree from Yale. To my mind, self-supporting and the pride and self-determination that goes with it is the border between success and failure. Programs that bring this about are to be supported, whether or not they produce law degrees, or any degrees, from Yale.

[barmar]

Just heard that he'll be on Fresh Air tomorrow.

[Winstonm]

It occurs to me that the RNC has yet to grasp that the Trump phenomena is primarily a repudiation of the Republican policies of the past 40 years combined with an inability of the Democratic Party to position itself as the party of the working class.

This is a historic opportunity for someone - but who?

[kenberg]

Winstonm, on 2016-August-16, 16:58, said:

It occurs to me that the RNC has yet to grasp that the Trump phenomena is primarily a repudiation of the Republican policies of the past 40 years combined with an inability of the Democratic Party to position itself as the party of the working class.

This is a historic opportunity for someone - but who?

Absolutely this is an opportunity, and I agree that it is far from clear just who will seize it. I have just had a long bridge day and I am relaxing with wine, but I may later have some thoughts about this.

[mike777]

Winstonm, on 2016-August-16, 16:58, said:

It occurs to me that the RNC has yet to grasp that the Trump phenomena is primarily a repudiation of the Republican policies of the past 40 years combined with an inability of the Democratic Party to position itself as the party of the working class.

This is a historic opportunity for someone - but who?

Winston you seem to be misreading the votes and the polls. The Democratic party is getting votes, massive votes from the working class. Why in the world do you think the Democratic party does not get votes from the working class?

Look at the working class votes in calif, in LA, in NYC in Phili, in Chicago, in Detroit, Charlotte, in SF, in Oakland, in Gary, in etc etc.


I predict Hillary will get milions and millions of working class votes.
------------------------
-----------------------------

As has been pointed out in this thread and in numerous media reports those voting for Trump are: racists, uneducated, homophobic, islamicphobia, hate women, or just plain white trash.

[PassedOut]

mike777, on 2016-August-16, 22:29, said:

As has been pointed out in this thread and in numerous media reports those voting for Trump are: racists, uneducated, homophobic, islamicphobia, hate women, or just plain white trash.

You are wrong to leave it at that. As posters here and the media have pointed out, many of the Trump supporters have economic concerns that they don't see being addressed.

It is wrong for any party to try to win votes by pandering to racism, homophobia, and so on. But a party can legitimately work to earn those votes by addressing the economic concerns.

[PassedOut]

The NYT published this yesterday: Trump Casinos’ Tax Debt Was $30 Million. Then Christie Took Office.

Quote

The Times discovered the agreement during a review of the thousands of documents filed in the bankruptcies of Mr. Trump’s casinos. The taxes went unpaid from 2002 through 2006, during which time Mr. Trump was leading the company as chairman and, until 2005, as its chief executive. He reaped millions of dollars in fees and bonuses from the company, even as it underperformed competitors, lost money every year and saw its stock collapse.

Mr. Trump and Mr. Christie met in 2002, when Mr. Christie was the United States attorney for New Jersey. Mr. Trump’s sister Maryanne Trump Barry, then a federal judge in the state, had mentioned to Mr. Christie that her famous brother would like to meet him. They struck up a friendship. Mr. Christie was invited to Mr. Trump’s third wedding in 2005, and Mr. Trump was a prominent guest at Mr. Christie’s inauguration in 2010. They have double dated with their wives.

No wonder Christie was livid when Trump chose Pence as his running mate...

[onoway]

The thing I don't understand is the frequent comment by Trump supporters that he is such a successful businessman. This is a mind boggling leap of ...well who knows what, but since when are multiple bankruptcies and fraudulent business ventures such as Trump " university" considered examples of how to run a successful business? Has anything he's been involved with NOT been tinged with questionable business practices and dubious profitability? Do these admirers not know, or don't they believe, or what on earth is going on there?

[Winstonm]

onoway, on 2016-August-17, 07:43, said:

The thing I don't understand is the frequent comment by Trump supporters that he is such a successful businessman. This is a mind boggling leap of ...well who knows what, but since when are multiple bankruptcies and fraudulent business ventures such as Trump " university" considered examples of how to run a successful business? Has anything he's been involved with NOT been tinged with questionable business practices and dubious profitability? Do these admirers not know, or don't they believe, or what on earth is going on there?

If you buy into the right-wing schtick, it is not so difficult to view Trump as successful in business. Ignoring science, evidence, reason, and facts in favor of listening to a constant stream of sermons from Fox News and a.m. radio preachers, it is easy to understand how someone would disavow any negative information about Trump as "liberal media bias".

[Winstonm]

mike777, on 2016-August-16, 22:29, said:

Winston you seem to be misreading the votes and the polls. The Democratic party is getting votes, massive votes from the working class. Why in the world do you think the Democratic party does not get votes from the working class?

Look at the working class votes in calif, in LA, in NYC in Phili, in Chicago, in Detroit, Charlotte, in SF, in Oakland, in Gary, in etc etc.


I predict Hillary will get milions and millions of working class votes.
------------------------
-----------------------------

As has been pointed out in this thread and in numerous media reports those voting for Trump are: racists, uneducated, homophobic, islamicphobia, hate women, or just plain white trash.

Unlike Sheldon Cooper, I can spot sarcasm - even misguided sarcasm. But information is the great equalizer in the battle for minds. Here is some pertinent information about Trump voters.

source: http://www.theatlant...-really/471714/
emphasis added

Quote

The single best predictor of Trump support in the GOP primary is the absence of a college degree. In an analysis of Trump's blowout win in New Hampshire, Evan Soltas determined that the factor explaining most of the variance in Trump's support in New Hampshire was education.

“For every 1 percentage point more college graduates over the age of 25, Donald Trump's share of votes falls by 0.65 percentage points,” he said.

Diplomas are what Ron Brownstein calls the “new Republican fault line.” In 2012, Mitt Romney struggled for months to consolidate support because, even as he had clear support among college-educated Republicans, he fared worse among non-college voters.

Quote

RAND tested several queries to clearly divide Trump’s support from his rivals. For example, they found that Trump crushes Ted Cruz among voters who both strongly believe that “immigrants threaten American customs and values" and among voters who "strongly favor" raising taxes on the richest American households. But voters who agreed with the statement “people like me don't have any say about what the government does” were 86.5 percent more likely to prefer Trump. This feeling of powerlessness and voicelessness was a much better predictor of Trump support than age, race, college attainment, income, attitudes towards Muslims, illegal immigrants, or Hispanic identity.

Less educated people who feel they have no voice in government are the primary Trump supporters - the same group that Romney could not attract in his attempt.

That is a pretty good description of working class - less educated. powerless, and fearful of job loss to outside laborers - don't you think?

The confusing aspect is to figure out why the powerless-feeling working class continues to support the party that is determined to eradicate the only hope for power, i.e. unions and collective bargaining, the working class has.

Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with the weakening of the FCC and the Fairness Doctrine, along with weakening of the anti-trust laws, which has led over time to organizations that fill the written news and airwaves with what can only be termed biased propaganda.

Where this disinformation misses is with the tech-savvy young, who are more prone to garner their knowledge from the internet and independent sources. That independent thought, to me, is the explanation of the Bernie Sanders phenomenon and a source of optimism for the country.

[kenberg]

PassedOut, on 2016-August-17, 06:47, said:

The NYT published this yesterday: Trump Casinos' Tax Debt Was $30 Million. Then Christie Took Office.


No wonder Christie was livid when Trump chose Pence as his running mate...

Trump said "I love the poorly educated". The complete thought could have been "I love the poorly educated, they make me rich by putting their paychecks into my slot machines". Christie or the poorly educated, or business associates, or young people looking for professional training, or anyone else, the clear Trump motto is "Never give a sucker an even break". W.C. Fields was funny, Trump isn't.

I think that this is all that one really has to understand about him.