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What does North's sequence show when:
1) 3♦ was just natural
2) 3♦ was lebensohl-style, showing extra values (8-10 pts or so)?
Partner and I had a misunderstanding in this auction.
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What is going on!?
#1
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Posted 2015-March-14, 18:23
What does North's sequence show when:
1) 3♦ was just natural
2) 3♦ was lebensohl-style, showing extra values (8-10 pts or so)?
Partner and I had a misunderstanding in this auction.
'In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.' - Douglas Adams
#2
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Posted 2015-March-15, 05:09
1) It is a contract suggestion, a very strong hand with 5 spades and no heart stop, offering choice of spades or diamonds
2) This is harder, because I think 3S over 3D is forcing playing lebensohl. If you are uncertain of that, then see (1) above. But assuming you are certain, then (i) it can't be natural, because you'd have bid 3S over 3D; (ii) it can't agree a minor, because 4H would have done that (I don't think 4D is forcing over 4C). That makes it mean one of two things, either
a) a cue for one of the minors without a heart control, or
b) natural, a hand such as AKQJ xxx Axx KQx
I think it probably ought to be a), but I wouldn't do it on the basis of my general rule that in murky auctions with no clear strain, 4M is always a contract suggestion.
Either way it must have support for one of the minors.
2) This is harder, because I think 3S over 3D is forcing playing lebensohl. If you are uncertain of that, then see (1) above. But assuming you are certain, then (i) it can't be natural, because you'd have bid 3S over 3D; (ii) it can't agree a minor, because 4H would have done that (I don't think 4D is forcing over 4C). That makes it mean one of two things, either
a) a cue for one of the minors without a heart control, or
b) natural, a hand such as AKQJ xxx Axx KQx
I think it probably ought to be a), but I wouldn't do it on the basis of my general rule that in murky auctions with no clear strain, 4M is always a contract suggestion.
Either way it must have support for one of the minors.
#3
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Posted 2015-March-15, 11:31
FrancesHinden, on 2015-March-15, 05:09, said:
1) It is a contract suggestion, a very strong hand with 5 spades and no heart stop, offering choice of spades or diamonds.
2) This is harder, because I think 3S over 3D is forcing playing lebensohl. If you are uncertain of that, then see (1) above. But assuming you are certain, then (i) it can't be natural, because you'd have bid 3S over 3D; (ii) it can't agree a minor, because 4H would have done that (I don't think 4D is forcing over 4C). That makes it mean one of two things, either
a) a cue for one of the minors without a heart control, or
b) natural, a hand such as AKQJ xxx Axx KQx
I think it probably ought to be a), but I wouldn't do it on the basis of my general rule that in murky auctions with no clear strain, 4M is always a contract suggestion.
Either way it must have support for one of the minors.
2) This is harder, because I think 3S over 3D is forcing playing lebensohl. If you are uncertain of that, then see (1) above. But assuming you are certain, then (i) it can't be natural, because you'd have bid 3S over 3D; (ii) it can't agree a minor, because 4H would have done that (I don't think 4D is forcing over 4C). That makes it mean one of two things, either
a) a cue for one of the minors without a heart control, or
b) natural, a hand such as AKQJ xxx Axx KQx
I think it probably ought to be a), but I wouldn't do it on the basis of my general rule that in murky auctions with no clear strain, 4M is always a contract suggestion.
Either way it must have support for one of the minors.
And does this still apply if an immediate 3H by N would have been a stopper-ask? So is there a difference between this auction and (2H)-P-(P)-3H;(P)-4C-(P)-4S?
I agree it is a murky one.
With this Western cue agreement I wondered if N could ever have a rock crusher in spades for dbl->cue->♠, or would he always bid some number of ♠ at his second turn with this, no matter how good his hand was?
'In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.' - Douglas Adams
#4
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Posted 2015-March-15, 16:21
Yes the 3H stopper ask can be a single-suiter in spades, but if you have a single-suiter in spades I think you have to bid them on the next round.
Good general rule: really strong one-suiters are sometimes allowed to put off bidding their suit for one round, but not for two.
Good general rule: really strong one-suiters are sometimes allowed to put off bidding their suit for one round, but not for two.
#5
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Posted 2015-March-17, 01:15
After 3D show pts...
4D not forcing (its not because you are looking for 3NT that you are in GF).
4H H control.
4S slammish for clubs no H control.
4NT slammish for D no H control.
If my suit is not good enough to bid at the 3 level it wont be good enough to bid at the 4 level. So for me 4S is 100% a cue. With AKQJ xxx Axx KQx I would just bid 3S forcing even if I know its possible that 3NT make and 4S will go down. Bidding a new suit not forcing at the 4 level when i had the chance to bid it earlier is simply not my style.
4D not forcing (its not because you are looking for 3NT that you are in GF).
4H H control.
4S slammish for clubs no H control.
4NT slammish for D no H control.
If my suit is not good enough to bid at the 3 level it wont be good enough to bid at the 4 level. So for me 4S is 100% a cue. With AKQJ xxx Axx KQx I would just bid 3S forcing even if I know its possible that 3NT make and 4S will go down. Bidding a new suit not forcing at the 4 level when i had the chance to bid it earlier is simply not my style.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
#6
- Andy Bowles
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Posted 2015-March-17, 01:49
Things are simpler if you play that 3♥ is a game-force:
4♦ = agreeing diamonds
4♥ = agreeing clubs, cue-bid
4♠ = agreeing clubs, cue-bid
4NT = Keycard with clubs agreed
I think that the benefits of having clearcut slam auctions easily outweigh the benefit of being able to stop in 4♦. Advancer often won't know whether it's right to pass 4♦, so there's not much cost to playing that we're game-forced.
4♦ = agreeing diamonds
4♥ = agreeing clubs, cue-bid
4♠ = agreeing clubs, cue-bid
4NT = Keycard with clubs agreed
I think that the benefits of having clearcut slam auctions easily outweigh the benefit of being able to stop in 4♦. Advancer often won't know whether it's right to pass 4♦, so there's not much cost to playing that we're game-forced.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#7
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Posted 2015-March-17, 03:08
gnasher, on 2015-March-17, 01:49, said:
Things are simpler if you play that 3♥ is a game-force:
4♦ = agreeing diamonds
4♥ = agreeing clubs, cue-bid
4♠ = agreeing clubs, cue-bid
4NT = Keycard with clubs agreed
I think that the benefits of having clearcut slam auctions easily outweigh the benefit of being able to stop in 4♦. Advancer often won't know whether it's right to pass 4♦, so there's not much cost to playing that we're game-forced.
4♦ = agreeing diamonds
4♥ = agreeing clubs, cue-bid
4♠ = agreeing clubs, cue-bid
4NT = Keycard with clubs agreed
I think that the benefits of having clearcut slam auctions easily outweigh the benefit of being able to stop in 4♦. Advancer often won't know whether it's right to pass 4♦, so there's not much cost to playing that we're game-forced.
It's quite simple the other way around - play a direct raise to 4♦ as a slam try.
Now you can explore for 3NT with a cue bid without being committed to 5m when partner can't deliver.
#8
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Posted 2015-March-17, 17:43
Why can't this be a real moose of a hand that is looking for a ♠ slam even with little or no support?
Sarcasm is a state of mind
#9
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Posted 2015-March-18, 03:53
steve2005, on 2015-March-17, 17:43, said:
Why can't this be a real moose of a hand that is looking for a ♠ slam even with little or no support?
FrancesHinden, on 2015-March-15, 16:21, said:
Yes the 3H stopper ask can be a single-suiter in spades, but if you have a single-suiter in spades I think you have to bid them on the next round.
(-: Zel :-)
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