[Cyberyeti]

 paulg, on 2015-February-16, 06:52, said:

Four-card stayman with Smolen is part of the standard system for the England Juniors and, soon, for the Scotland Juniors (where there is no standard currently).

3♠ would be a cue bid agreeing hearts.

OK, this surprises me but clearly I'm wrong, I've never noticed it happen with decent players and even Baron is more common in my experience.

[PLimprove]

It's puppet stayman. 3S= 4+S,4-H

[wank]

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-February-16, 07:10, said:

OK, this surprises me but clearly I'm wrong, I've never noticed it happen with decent players and even Baron is more common in my experience.

i've played with 3 players from recent open teams and we've played normal stayman and smolen every time (i don't direct system). personally, i've never played 3c 5 card stayman and consider it to be one of the more useless conventions.

[mgoetze]

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-February-16, 05:24, said:

Actually this is not a problem with one of the common methods here.

2N-3♣

3M = 5 cards
3♦ = no 5M, but at least 3 spades or 4 hearts so you know you have a fit with 5♠/4♥
3N 2♠/2-3♥

Over 3♦ we don't puppet, but you can if 3♥ over this denies hearts and is your method to simply bid 3N, opener bids 3♠ or 3N depending on whether he has spades, 3♠ shows hearts but not spades and 3N shows 4-4.

That's all fine and well except that you're playing pretty much every 4-4 fit with responder as declarer, which seems pretty horrible. And with the puppet variation of your method you're leaking quite a bit more information than with standard puppet.

Believe me, if this method were straight-up superior to anything else it would be common in more places than just "here".

[Cyberyeti]

 wank, on 2015-February-16, 07:58, said:

i've played with 3 players from recent open teams and we've played normal stayman and smolen every time (i don't direct system). personally, i've never played 3c 5 card stayman and consider it to be one of the more useless conventions.

Always worked well for me, but then I'd never heard of Smolen until I started frequenting websites with Americans so am used to it. 5 card stayman over 2N was popularised I think by Crowhurst's books and was played by many people who read them at the time. It seems to have very little obvious downside, and the obvious upsides that you don't play 3N with 5332 opposite 3442 with matching small doubletons and can investigate a slam when you have a 5-4 fit and combined values short of what you'd need with a 4-4 fit.

[Cyberyeti]

 mgoetze, on 2015-February-16, 08:08, said:

That's all fine and well except that you're playing pretty much every 4-4 fit with responder as declarer, which seems pretty horrible. And with the puppet variation of your method you're leaking quite a bit more information than with standard puppet.

Believe me, if this method were straight-up superior to anything else it would be common in more places than just "here".

I wasn't saying it was straight up superior, I was saying you don't have to take up the 3♠ bid for 5♠/4♥. (The method is not really mine, it comes from Crowhurst's books)

We actually had a hand recently where playing 4M from the wrong hand mattered (in that we didn't get the natural helpful lead rather than getting a devastating one) and we remarked that it was the first time in the 20 years of our partnership that we could remember that this had cost us, so it's overrated. A large majority of our bridge is however teams, so the cases where it costs an overtrick are unlikely to be noticed. Playing it from the bad hand can also sometimes help where the small hand is say 2416 and the defence don't see the danger, which is much more obvious if the club suit is on the deck.

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-February-16, 08:09, said:

Always worked well for me.....

I envy you. It seems everything you play always working well for you, If I had only %40 of the things that I play worked always well for me, I'd be a world champ by now. Hell...as a matter of fact, I do not recall 1 single toy or style that always worked well for me. Yet we see such claims on forums everyday.

[dave_beer]

 mgoetze, on 2015-February-15, 11:02, said:

For me it's pretty standard that 3♠ shows a slam try in hearts, and 4♣ instead would have been natural, implying 4 spades (the strength of this implication depends on how many other ways you have to show minor suit hands).

In an old-fashioned universe:
3♠ = natural slam try with both majors.
4♣ = natural with 5+♣ and unknown 4-card M. If the major is ♥ responder is telling about the potential source of tricks for slam purposes and has to make immediate return to ♥ to clarify.

Responder can also raise ♥ directly with no side suit worth showing and no shortness if you also play some kind of splinters.

[jmcilkley]

 eagles123, on 2015-February-15, 10:26, said:

---

3c is regular stayman (3d/3h trans 3s 5/4 s/h, 3n to play)


what is 3s now?

as an aside, what would 4c have been?


thanks,

Eagles

I would say that it shows 4 hearts and 5 spades, forcing of course For most people 3c should be some form of 5 card Stayman of course.
the other way round, with 4 spades and 5 hearts it is quite common to show that by bidding 3s directly over 3NT - as you would never need 3s naturally.

[zillahandp]

Cue bid , as is 4c

[mgoetze]

So this is what happens when a thread is on the BBO News... LOL.

Hi guys, welcome to the forum...

[eagles123]

 mgoetze, on 2015-February-15, 11:02, said:

For me it's pretty standard that 3♠ shows a slam try in hearts, and 4♣ instead would have been natural, implying 4 spades (the strength of this implication depends on how many other ways you have to show minor suit hands).

well this is what I thought but the bbo teacher disagreed haha

[Roby]

I consulted Alan Truscott's book <The bidding dictionary>. For development after 2NT opening (or similar 2C-2D-2NT) with conventional meaning (he mentioned just these conventions: Puppet Stayman, Rosenkrantz, Ghose and Smolen, probably the most common at the time he wrote it), at page 130 2NT-3C-3H-3S is labelled "X" - No Standard Meaning, but in some cases, possible meaning are suggested. He suggested at note 654 for 3S in above sequence: "Many use this as a slam try, agreeing hearts".
As for 2NT-3C-3H-4C, at same page the sequence is labelled as "FG" and shows 8+ points, and a hand containing 4(-)S 3(-)H 4(-)D 5(+)C.
I hope it helps just a bit.

[lexlogan]

 eagles123, on 2015-February-15, 10:26, said:

---

3c is regular stayman (3d/3h trans 3s 5/4 s/h, 3n to play)


what is 3s now?

as an aside, what would 4c have been?


thanks,

Eagles

There does not appear to be any hand type that needs to bid a natural 3♠ here, unlike the sequence 1NT-2♣; 2♥-2♠ where the standard interpretation is a semi-invitational hand with five spades and a five card minor -- about 6-8 hcp opposite 15-17, allowing game interest opposite four card support but not really worth a 2NT rebid.

I play "3 other major slam try" over 1NT and "other major slam try" over 2NT, so the "illogical" 3♠ bid shows a heart fit and slam interest. 4♣ or 4♦ would be natural and forcing with slam interest but no fit for hearts; likewise 4NT would be a quantitative slam try without a heart fit. But I would never bid 3♠ at the table without discussion.