[helene_t]

 mgoetze, on 2015-February-16, 19:36, said:

Well obviously you are not compelled to take any advice you might find on the forum. Lucky you.

Well, he has his prefered style, you have yours.

[biggerclub]

 P_Marlowe, on 2015-February-17, 04:55, said:

I dont think, that 3S can be passed, either bid 3NT or 4S.
I also dont think, that raising diamonds with only 3 is a option,
2D does not promise 5.
What is wrong with 2NT, you have a bal. hand with inv. values, or if
you dont want to show the inv. values, which is a judgement call,
why not bid 2H?

I guess 2NT by me on my 2nd call is the right action. I unilaterally decided to PASS 3S knowing it was forcing given that my hand has fallen apart (discounting my QJx to zero) on the sequence. I think 2H is too weak, too early with a reasonable 10 count.

[mgoetze]

 helene_t, on 2015-February-17, 05:45, said:

Well, he has his prefered style, you have yours.

Sure, that's fine, I just don't see why he felt the need to reply to me specifically.

[mycroft]

My current style is 1NT if the cards are NT-suitable, suit otherwise - basically looking for reasons not to open 1NT. Here, there's nothing about the hand that makes it want to be declarer, so 1♥ for me. Yes, it makes life hard with the invitational hands - so probably opener can't "correct" to 3♠, it has to be forcing to make this work.

I'm certain "all 5M332s" works; I'm certain it works well; I'm certain there's at most 2 pairs in my area that play that (and I could be overestimating by up to 2).

[lexlogan]

 biggerclub, on 2015-February-13, 21:04, said:

---

What is your opening bid playing typical North American 2/1 GF style?

I'm really on the fence between 1♥ and 1NT on this one. This looks like it will play well in a suit, and odds favor partner having three or more hearts. This qualifies under the "two flaws" theory of avoiding 1NT: five card major AND weak doubleton. However, with exactly 16 hcp we can't rebid accurately if the bidding starts 1H-1NT -- 2NT will often be an overbid, and when it isn't partner's 3NT may well be; but if we rebid 2D we must guess after partner's preference back to 2H. After 1H-1S, we can try 2D and then 2S if partner returns to 2H; the big risk is partner passes with 1-4 or even 1-3 in the red suits.

Forced to decide at the table, I'll open 1♥ and rebid 2♦ or make a game try (2♠) should partner raise; if that's a constructive raise (8-10) I'll simply bid game.

[lexlogan]

 biggerclub, on 2015-February-17, 09:06, said:

I guess 2NT by me on my 2nd call is the right action. I unilaterally decided to PASS 3S knowing it was forcing given that my hand has fallen apart (discounting my QJx to zero) on the sequence. I think 2H is too weak, too early with a reasonable 10 count.

If you assume partner tends to open 1NT on 15-17, then when partner rebids 2♦ it is less likely that he has that range. Sure, I never open 1NT with 5-4 where the long suit is a major, but I think it is best not to assume 10 hcp requires a game invitation. I would've taken a preference to 2♥, especially considering the weak diamonds. Then I'd be happy to accept any game invitation. On today's hand partner continues with 2♠, showing a hand too strong for an immediate raise but with only three card support. This suggests some duplication of club values; you could pass or continue with 2NT or 3♦ or 3♠. With 26 hcp reaching game seems normal and 3NT actually looks reasonable, so 1♥-1♠; 2♦-2♥; 2♠-2NT; 3NT should not score badly. A club lead is only somewhat less likely after 1NT-2♣; 2♥-3NT but that is an advantage of opening 1NT.

[mikeh]

I speak from a NA perspective, and even here there is a range of opinion. However, I am firmly in the camp of those who open 1N on all 5332 hands in range, playing a strong notrump. By in range, I mean 15-16 in a 15-17 context, since I will usually, but not always, upgrade a 17 count to 1M followed by 2N.

While I recognize that some very good players disagree, it seems to me that the arguments are strongly in favour of this approach. I can't cover all of them, and some may say I don't do full justice to those I do cover, but there are space constraints, after all

The problem with a 1♥ opener is exemplified by the OP. Faced with a 1♠ response, opener is forced to distort by bidding a short minor, whether a 2 card club suit or a 3 card diamond suit is a matter of preference and stomach for disaster. Even when partner is aware of this possibility, he will assume that most of the time you have a real minor, since 5332 hands with 15-16 are a small subset of holdings consistent with 1H then 2m.

Thus he may pass.

Even when he bids, problems may flow. For example, in the OP sequence, responder has to worry about finding opener with 3=5=4=1 or 3=5=3=2, and, without commenting on the actual hand posted, it is clear that there will be many holdings where it would be correct to play for the 4-3 spade game opposite a 3=5=4=1, and yet fatal opposite a 3=5=3=2.

More generally, after any 1M opening on a 15-16 5332, we get problems when partner responds 1N, whether that be forcing, semi-forcing, or not at all forcing.

When it is forcing or semi-forcing, opener has to rebid, and what does he do? When it isn't remotely forcing, opener now wants to rebid (if partner has 9-10) and so can't really afford to pass, and he has the same 'what does he do' problem, compounded by the fact that a 2m rebid is far more likely to be real than when one plays a forcing 1N response....all 5233 hands with a minimum hand would rebid 2♣ when 1N is a force, but when 1N isn't forcing, 2♣ will almost always show 4, since 5332 15-16 hands are a relative rarity.

We are already often out of the best contract.....1N. On many hands, responder would have passed 1N, and even when that is not the optimum contract, it is often the most difficult to defend, especially on the opening lead after 1N passed out. Personally, if I had to pick a contract and auction where I (usually) most enjoy being declarer, it is 1N passed out...tho fairness compels me to admit that on occasion this becomes the worst contract!

There is a special problem for the 1♠ 1N 2m sequence, when opener has 3 hearts and responder a weak hand with 5 indifferent hearts. This can be solved, to some degree, by special methods, but many pairs will end up in a 5-2 spade fit or a 4-3 minor fit rather than a 5-3 heart fit, as would always be found after 1N is opened.

More generally, again, it is a truism that the less well defined one's actions are, the less effective one's auctions will be. When one opens 1N with the 5332 hand, that takes that holding out of the possible meanings of 1M then 2m, which improves the odds that responder can bid effectively over the 2m rebid. It also means that opener's 3rd round action, if he takes any, will be better defined. See the OP problem and picture the sequence as promising an extra-values 3=5=4=1 rather than a nebulous call.

There are of course real problems with opening 1N with a long major. One will often miss a 5-3 fit, even with game going values opposite, unless one plays a form of puppet, or similar device. One may even miss a 5-4 fit!

Missing the major is not, however, always bad news, tho it often is.

I am sure we have all seen 1N make where had the major been opened, responder would have raised, and they get too high. This danger is lessened somewhat by playing constructive raises, which makes opener's game tries on 15-16 less risky than when partner could table an unhelpful 6 count with xxx in trump.

At even when the major plays better, if we are speaking of imps, which I confess is my preferred form of game, playing 1N making 1, rather than 2M making 2, doesn't bother me a whole lot.

In short, I am very comfortable with opening the vast majority of 5332 hands, with a 5 card major and 15-16 hcp, with 1N. There are hands that fit that description where I don't like 1N, but I still bid it because the rest of the methods are designed with that in mind, and the price of having to distort, as did the OP, is too great, at least in my mind, to warrant making my major suit sequences less certain than they can be when we exclude 5332 15-16 counts from them.

[monikrazy]

At Imps, I think I prefer 1H. It feels a little too good for 1N (knr has it 17.2) and I don't mind upgrading for most suit contracts. Over 1S I will risk 2N (playing wolff signoffs) and hope we don't miss a 5-3 fit.

For MP, 1N is more routine.

Quote

Our unimpeded auction (I am Responder) went 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♦ - 3♠ all PASS.

Maybe bid 2N instead of 3d?

[Phil]

 monikrazy, on 2015-February-18, 14:56, said:

At Imps, I think I prefer 1H. It feels a little too good for 1N (knr has it 17.2) and I don't mind upgrading for most suit contracts. Over 1S I will risk 2N (playing wolff signoffs) and hope we don't miss a 5-3 fit.

For MP, 1N is more routine.

[/size]

Maybe bid 2N instead of 3d?

Funny, I feel the opposite. At IMPs we'll ram it in to 4M or 3N and not care a whole lot. At MPs playing 2H instead of 1N can be a very big deal and 1N buries the hearts.

But I still open 1N always.

[mike777]

 biggerclub, on 2015-February-16, 11:35, said:

Our unimpeded auction (I am Responder) went 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦ - 3♦ - 3♠ all PASS.

I held AKxx, xx, T9xx, QJx and gave up after imagining the value of QJx opposite x. Didn't really matter because 3♦ was the last plus (barring a line that involves looking at the OPPs cards) and no matter what we weren't stopping there.

I was a bit upset with my partner when dummy came down and actually said something about the auction at the table (I VERY rarely do that). I ran it by my best partner and he would have bid the hand the same way. So I apologized to my actual partner on this hand.

And renewed my resolve to never comment on a hand at the table. Because bridge is harder than that.

3s is 100% force, you cannot pass.


In any event the problem was not opening 1h
----------


I was taught to open many offshape hands 1nt when playing 2/1 style, more than most, but it was suggested to try 1h on these type of hands with xx in the side suit. As is often the case in bridge, the wonderful game that it is, it is often the second problem that is more interesting as here.


In this case 1h or 1nt should get you to game.