[Jinksy]

I've been meaning to post this for a while - my second attempt at putting together a suitable system for the Fantunes 1N.

General observations:

There's nothing wildly original about any part of the system, but it's put together with a few salient characteristics of the Fantunes 1N in mind, so hoped it would interest other Fantunes players:

1) that opener has a wide enough set of hand shapes to make asking bids relatively better than shape-showing bids by opener (this is why we ditched our original Keri system)

2) that unusually in our version, opener can have either 5-4 or 2-2 in the majors (this was originally a big worry for me, but I spent several hours testing out deals on BBO and didn't find any where it seemed to do any harm at IMP scoring)

3) that (as with weak NT in general), game-hunting is more important than slam hunting, hence several NF bids after a Stayman response

4) if in doubt about which options are most useful, I've tried to keep it simple

5) that we largely ignore the possibility of P having a singleton in our suit. Also couldn't fit the single-suited minor invites of our Keri system, and some of the rightsiding. Can't have everything


Anyway, onto a more detailed summary of the bids:

2♣ = regular Stayman, though with 5-4 in the majors, opener should bid his longest first, since this will be Garbage Stayman relatively often
2♦♥ = regular Xfers. Slam-seeking single-suiters will only go via these if they can splinter afterwards. With 5-5 in the majors gf and no slam interest, you bid 2♦
2♠ = range finder, inv (with no 4cM) or slam interest
2NT = GF 5 card Stayman (details completely ripped off from MickyB other than the 3♦ response* and major inversions, though I think he took it from Meckwell?)
3♣♦♥ = nat, slam try (with no shortage if in ♥s)
3♠ = GF with 5-5 in the minors
3N, 4♣♦♥♠ all to play (ie preemptive for minors)

After 2♣ 2♦:

2M is to play
2N invites
3♣ to play
3♦ doesn't exist atm
3♥ NF inv with 5-5 in the majors
3♠ single suited game try (no shortage)

After 2♣ and a 2M response, 3m is to play, the cheapest oM bid is a slam try in ♠s, others are what you'd expect.

After xfers most bids are standard meaning, except after 2♦2♥/ 2♠ is nat inv+, then:

2N, 3♥, 3♠ are natural mins
3m is an accept with a ♥/♠ fit

Then responder's 3♠ is 5-5 gf, allowing you to stay below 3N when opener has 22.

After 2♠ (range-finder):

2N is any min
3♣ is max no 5cM
3♦ is max with 5♥s
3♥ is max with 5♠s

After 2N (5 card Stayman):

3♣ just denies a 5cM (more below)
3♦ shows (54)22
3♥ shows 5♠s
3♠ shows 5♥s

After higher responses, bidding is natural.

Finally, after 2N 3♣, 3♦ forces 3♥, after which responder bids 3♠/3N to show 31(45)/13(45)


* This was non-existent for MickyB last I heard, but nicely filled a gap for us that he doesn't have

[Zelandakh]

Have you considered my structure based on 2♣ Puppet? To be honest any sensible system with a Puppet response should work - you just need to define the transfer superaccepts to take account of the 4441 hands.

[Jinksy]

Where could I see it?

I would be wary of using any 2♣ bid that partitioned opener's rebids less evenly or less naturally than Stayman, since I've found Garbage Stayman an invaluable part of the system here.

[Zelandakh]

I have posted it on BBF many times. One fairly complete example from 2012 is here. I don't think I changed too much since then although you could also compare it with more recent posts if you want to take the time to find them.

[Jinksy]

Do you think it (or some subsection of it) fits the Fantunes 1N well? Or are you just offering it as a complete NT package that you think works well with any NT opening? If the former, can you explain why?

I'm not too concerned about 4441s - I've yet to see a hand where any such distribution has obviously led us to the wrong contract, and I must have practiced on hundreds, possibly thousands of NT opening hands by now.

Much more frequently, in the Keri-derived system I used before this, not being able to safely find out about 4-4 (or occasionally 5-4) major suit fits cost us a game/hoping for one caused us to bid to a poor NT contract. Also at matchpoints, Garbage Stayman is pretty much essential for us - without it we'll often miss the 5-4 major part scores the rest of the room is playing in.

[Zelandakh]

That is the point of a weak NT though. It hides some of our fits but it also hides them for the opponents. Wins and losses and you are gambling that you get more wins in the long run. The benefit of using 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2NT as 4-4 majors and invitational is that when Opener corrects to 3M with a mimimum Responder can raise with extra distribution. So the hands you are losing on are those with both majors and less than invitational values. A lot of the time the opponsnts will compete on these and you can back back in or 1NT scores better than their 3m contract, so the number where you are losing is not excessive compared to the wins imo - but you are right that it is an area of concern.

I happen to think it is indeed a package that works well with any 1NT opening but especially for one where 5332 shape in range is always opened 1NT. This is also the case for the 1NT that I use and that also covers all 4414s (but not 4441s or (14)44s). I deal with those 4414s by using the super-accepts 1NT - 2♦; 2♠ and 1NT - 2♥; 3♣ specifically for these shapes. Obviously this could also be extended to 4441s. The fact that a weak hand with long diamonds can get out at the 2 level opposite that 4414 hand also does noit hurt here; sadly that would not be extendable to a weak hand with clubs.

[Jinksy]

What would you guess is/are the primary gain(s) of it over a regular Stayman system (assuming both being used for a weak NT)?

(I'd be interested to compare a few hands dealt with just the most salient criteria, and see how they play out with me bidding opposite myself)

Btw, why not 1N 2♥ / 2N to show the 4441 after the xfer? That gives you room to find where the shortage is reliably, which unless I'm missing something, you don't have room to do otherwise.

[Zelandakh]

The main gain is that it handles all of the primary hand types efficiently, thus allowing almost everything to be shown. That is often not the case for systems including Puppet Stayman. The main hand type that has been discarded is the invite with a long broken minor, a compromise that is often made in 1NT response schemes. As above there is also a gain in being able to play 2♦ with a weak takeout in diamonds, especially when Opener can be 4414 shape. That roughly balances out the loss of 2♥ as Garbage Stayman plus the difference in Exit Stayman shapes. That you also want to use 1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠ as to play, presumably 5♠4♥, is something I would consider a mistake. You can get more benefit from using this constructively imho.

[jallerton]

Jinksy: how does Responder bid with an FG hand with a 5- or 6-card minor and a 4-card major in this structure?

[steve2005]

Jinksy, on 2014-August-18, 16:06, said:

I'm not too concerned about 4441s - I've yet to see a hand where any such distribution has obviously led us to the wrong contract, and I must have practiced on hundreds, possibly thousands of NT opening hands by now.

I believe Fantunes doesn't open all 4441 of that range 1N, so possibility even rarer. not sure the exceptions.

[Jinksy]

jallerton, on 2014-August-22, 16:13, said:

Jinksy: how does Responder bid with an FG hand with a 5- or 6-card minor and a 4-card major in this structure?

Naturally - after 3m, higher 3-level bids show a 4(or 5) card suit.

It's not very precise for slam bidding, but I've found I peeled more and more slam-hunting sequences back in favour of better game (and occasionally part score) bidding.

[Jinksy]

steve2005, on 2014-August-22, 19:24, said:

I believe Fantunes doesn't open all 4441 of that range 1N, so possibility even rarer. not sure the exceptions.

Unless they've changed it drastically it would be the only systemic bid for a 12-14 4441, though I suspect they liberally upgrade 14 counts and somewhat less liberally downgrade 12 counts on it.

[jallerton]

Jinksy, on 2014-August-23, 07:42, said:

Naturally - after 3m, higher 3-level bids show a 4(or 5) card suit.

It's not very precise for slam bidding, but I've found I peeled more and more slam-hunting sequences back in favour of better game (and occasionally part score) bidding.

OK, but your original post said:

Quote

3♣♦♥ = nat, single suited slam try

which is somewhat different. Opener needs to know if he is expected to bid his Jxxx suit or his AQx suit.

[Jinksy]

Yeah, I guess I mentally class 64nn as single suit, which doesn't help for the explanation (I've corrected it in the OP now, thanks).

Re those suits, I'd expect opener to bid neither under most circumstances. Jxxx isn't much of a suit for slam purposes, and 4 of the points in AQx will probably get cued at some stage.