[Flem72]

Or does the chart require 3+ clubs?

Also: If opener's 2D rebid merely excludes certain hands, and serves as a catchall for, say 5-3-3-2, hands with D, and/or hands with 4C and no short, does the 2D rebid qualify as a "relay" within the meaning of the GCC?

TIA

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[paulg]

Flem72, on 2014-July-02, 07:03, said:

Or does the chart require 3+ clubs?

Any non-relay game forcing response is permitted so the number of clubs is irrelevant.

Flem72, on 2014-July-02, 07:03, said:

Also: If opener's 2D rebid merely excludes certain hands, and serves as a catchall for, say 5-3-3-2, hands with D, and/or hands with 4C and no short, does the 2D rebid qualify as a "relay" within the meaning of the GCC?

This does not sound like a relay system to me so I think it's fine but the only opinion that counts is the TD that is called and, if they ever answered, the ACBL Competition and Conventions Committee.

[Flem72]

paulg, on 2014-July-02, 07:18, said:

and, if they ever answered, the ACBL Competition and Conventions Committee.

on the other one, got a reply from rulings@acbl.org, don't really expect one from CCC.

[mycroft]

the 2♦ call is not a relay under the definition (and even if it were, it would be allowed, even in a "relay system" because the first relay was opener's rebid). The 2♣ call is the problem. It's legal, as long as it's not "the first relay in a relay system". So, after 1M-2♣; 2♦, if 2♥ is "still any GF, clarify more" you'll have a GCC issue (similarly if after other responses from opener, the next call from responder is 90% "still any game force, clarify more").

[steve2005]

this came from the midchart.

Allowed

2.Relay (tell me more) systems that promise game-forcing values.

so what your trying to do is midchart not GCC.

if you want to use it in GCC you need 2♣ to promise 3-cards. In 3rd and 4th seat you are allowed an artificial bid called Drury.

[steve2005]

Flem72, on 2014-July-02, 07:03, said:

Also: If opener's 2D rebid merely excludes certain hands, and serves as a catchall for, say 5-3-3-2, hands with D, and/or hands with 4C and no short, does the 2D rebid qualify as a "relay" within the meaning of the GCC?

This part ok from GCC: allowed

8. ALL CONSTRUCTIVE CALLS starting with opener's second bid.

[mycroft]

Steve, I disagree with you, unless 2♣ is the first relay in a "relay system". Because:

RESPONSES AND REBIDS, 3: CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES WHICH GUARANTEE GAME FORCING OR BETTER VALUES. May NOT be part of a relay system.

The fact that 2♦ is a catchall (or even if 2♣ is the only game forcing call) doesn't make it a relay system, just a relay. It's if it's the start of a sequence of relay bids. So, what responder does on her second call matters; but the 2♣ call itself is perfectly legal (the reason Drury has a passed-hand cutout is that it is *not* game-forcing).

[blackshoe]

steve2005, on 2014-July-02, 13:49, said:

this came from the midchart.

Allowed

2.Relay (tell me more) systems that promise game-forcing values.

so what your trying to do is midchart not GCC.

if you want to use it in GCC you need 2♣ to promise 3-cards. In 3rd and 4th seat you are allowed an artificial bid called Drury.

What makes you think this is a relay system?

[steve2005]

original post 2♣ seems like a relay, otherwise why define it as GF

[Cthulhu D]

steve2005, on 2014-July-02, 16:07, said:

original post 2♣ seems like a relay, otherwise why define it as GF

Because you're playing 2/1 and what 2D to promise a real diamonds hand?

[Vampyr]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-July-02, 18:28, said:

Because you're playing 2/1 and what 2D to promise a real diamonds hand?

Or maybe you want all other 2/1s to not be game-forcing.

[Flem72]

steve2005, on 2014-July-02, 16:07, said:

original post 2♣ seems like a relay, otherwise why define it as GF

Usually not a true relay: O can show 6M or 4OM or bid any number of NT or support C, but 2D is a catchall for hands not described by the other available calls.

[blackshoe]

Even if 2♣ is a relay, that doesn't make it illegal under the GCC. What the GCC prohibits is relay systems, which are sequences of relay bids.

[Mbodell]

This is totally GCC legal. The one that people want to play that isn't GCC legal is 2!C as either game forcing or a balanced limit raise. This is a problem if it can be on 2 clubs and not game forcing.

[mycroft]

Mbodell, on 2014-July-03, 04:12, said:

This is totally GCC legal. The one that people want to play that isn't GCC legal is 2!C as either game forcing or a balanced limit raise. This is a problem if it can be on 2 clubs

with some hands

Quote

and not game forcing.

on other hands.

Qualifying, not correcting; and only because there are several regulations (outside the ACBL) that say effectively that it's okay if case A on all weak hands, or a strong hand that is not case A. The GCC regulation does not allow that. If it's natural (3+clubs guaranteed, no other known suit guaranteed), fine. If it's not always natural, then it has to be GF, or limit+ strength if by a passed hand in response to 1M. Unfortunately, "it's natural whenever it's not GF" is not permitted.

[Flem72]

I actually got a responsive reply from acbl:

Scott,

Thank you for your questions:

1M-2C = GF values is legal regardless of club length.

GCC (http://web2.acbl.org...ntion-Chart.pdf) - RESPONSES AND REBIDS
3. CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES WHICH GUARANTEE GAME FORCING OR BETTER VALUES. May NOT be part of a relay system.

However, the 2C response promising only 2 clubs requires an alert:

http://www.acbl.org/...ertPamphlet.pdf
EXAMPLE: 1S P 2C
"If 2C is natural and forcing, promising 3 or more clubs and 10 or more HCP (including those that are forcing to game), it requires no Alert. This is expected strength and shape of such as bid."

The corollary to this example is a 2C call promising 2+ clubs is unexpected and requiring of an alert.
http://www.acbl.org/.../AlertChart.pdf
Responses to One-Level Opening Suit Bids
Alert: 'Other conventional responses'.

If your system uses 2D as an opener rebid as a 'catch all' and is not the only option (opener can rebid suit, bid new suit, bid NT, jump shift, etc.) after 1M - 2C, then this is not a relay system.
If 2D is not descriptive (catchall - no appropriate alternative bid), but inquisitive (i.e. 'tell me more'), then it would be part of a relay system and this part of your convention would not be allowed under GCC.

Warmest regards,
Michael Weber
Tournament Director and Rulings Box Associate.
Please visit the ACBL website at http://www.acbl.org/...nd-regulations/ to links of helpful documents.



-----Original Message-----
From: S. Needham [mailto:needhamscott@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2014 5:33 PM
To: Rulings
Subject: 1M-2C = GF, showing 2+ clubs

Is this GCC-legal? Or does the chart require 3+ clubs?

Also: If opener's 2D rebid merely excludes certain hands, and serves as a catchall for, say 5-3-3-2, hands with D, and/or hands with 4C and no short, does the 2D rebid qualify as a "relay" within the meaning of the GCC?

TIA

Regards and Happy Trails,

Scott Needham
Boulder, Colorado, USA

[glen]

As you can see from the reply to Scotts email, whatever you do don't describe your bids as "tell me more"

Example:
2♣(Strong)-2♦(Tell me more]-2♥(Kokish)-2♠(Tell me more) = relay system for ACBL
2♣(Strong)-2♦(waiting]-2♥(Kokish)-2♠(waiting) = not a relay system for ACBL

[gwnn]

I thought the whole point of
1♠-2♣; 2♦ was for opener to tell more, not responder, e.g. the Ambra style:

1♠-2♣;
2♦= min, no 4-card major
     -2♥=tell me more
          2♠ =diamonds
          2NT =spades
          3♣+ =clubs

So this reply seems to miss the point. Of course opener has different rebids but the question is generally, does responder have bids other than 2♥? And if so, is it still a relay system? E.g.

1♠-2♣;
2♦= min, no 4-card major
     -2♥=tell me more
     -2♠=unbalanced, ♣+♠ support (but aren't we also asking opener to tell us more???)
     -2NT=semibalanced GF based on ♣, not interested in relaying unless you have special shape
     -3♣=awesome ♣ (tell me more? )
etc

[hrothgar]

gwnn, on 2014-July-07, 09:07, said:

I thought the whole point of
1♠-2♣; 2♦ was for opener to tell more, not responder, e.g. the Ambra style:

1♠-2♣;
2♦= min, no 4-card major
     -2♥=tell me more
          2♠ =diamonds
          2NT =spades
          3♣+ =clubs

So this reply seems to miss the point. Of course opener has different rebids but the question is generally, does responder have bids other than 2♥? And if so, is it still a relay system? E.g.

No one who makes the rules regarding relay systems in the ACBL actually plays relay methods, so there is a grave disconnect between the laws the ACBL wants to create and the laws that the ACBL writes.

[mycroft]

glen, on 2014-July-07, 08:57, said:

As you can see from the reply to Scotts email, whatever you do don't describe your bids as "tell me more"

Example:
2♣(Strong)-2♦(Tell me more]-2♥(Kokish)-2♠(Tell me more) = relay system for ACBL
2♣(Strong)-2♦(waiting]-2♥(Kokish)-2♠(waiting) = not a relay system for ACBL

ah, but no. No relay system starts with 2♣. Nor with 1NT, or 1NT-2♣; 2M-4♣; aces would be a relay system. Nobody plays that...Whether you agree with [Ed: The ACBL GCC] or not, the actual definition of relay system is quite well laid out. Now the definition of relay :-).

Yes, 1♣-1♦ "tell me more" leading to relays is a relay system, and not legal. More particularly, 1♥ (spades)-1♠ "relay time at the zoo" is.

The goal is to make sure that in "normal" cases, the defenders aren't playing with one hand completely described, and the other one saying only "we're going to game" (or, on the superchart, "we might be going to game until we stop all of a sudden"). Especially as the described hand tends to be on the table, in a well-defined relay system. Once each hand has shown something significant, go for it.

(says this relay precision player - but only after 1♣-response!)

[Edit: Glen asked a very valid question; I thought it was clear from context. Now that it's all been explained, I might as well fix the original post to be clearer yet.]