[the hog]

ArtK78, on 2014-May-13, 06:12, said:

I agree with The Hog but without the name calling. West should bid 4♠ over 3NT even if 3NT is not doubled.

The thought that the 3♣ bid is the villain of this auction is completely wrong. If you won't bid 3♣ WJS on this hand, what hand will you bid 3♣ on?

So what would you call him? An expert? He does not deserve a thinking partner.

[jogs]

The opening pass is probably best. 7222 is poor for preempting. Jx in two suits are major flaws.

Don't like WJS in contested auctions. Prefer fit jumps.

West should rebid 3♦. The likelihood the board belongs in spades is small. The diamond suit is self-sufficient. 30% of boards should be bid defensively. Avoid the big minus, rather than hope for the magical optimal result. Void in clubs suggests this to be a unlucky board.

[whereagles]

Ron, as much as you loath West's actions (I don't care for them much either), every player is entitled to err. You should respect that.

(By the way, sorry for getting into something that's not my business...)

[ArtK78]

jogs, on 2014-May-13, 06:56, said:

Don't like WJS in contested auctions. Prefer fit jumps.

That is all well and good, but this partnership was playing weak jump shifts. And, if you are playing weak jump shifts, this hand certainly qualifies as one.

[the hog]

whereagles, on 2014-May-13, 10:18, said:

Ron, as much as you loath West's actions (I don't care for them much either), every player is entitled to err. You should respect that.

(By the way, sorry for getting into something that's not my business...)

I agree Nuno, I was a bit over the top. However as Art says, if you are playing wjs, then this hand is a wjs. You cannot criticise partner for making a system bid especially as you have, (presumably), agreed to the system. Then you come here and try for (undeserved) sympathy. By the way, I changed my comment.

[rhm]

the hog, on 2014-May-13, 04:50, said:

So let me summarise the situation.
1) East did not open 3C and so cannot have a good C suit.
2) West opened a good, but not exceptional hand with 1D, no doubt intending to reverse into Spades. Personally I would have opened 1S, but never mind, I can live with 1D.
3) East bid 3C wjs, See point 1, the Cs cannot be great. The partnership has agreed to play Wjs.

ArtK78, on 2014-May-13, 06:12, said:

I agree with The Hog but without the name calling. West should bid 4♠ over 3NT even if 3NT is not doubled.

The thought that the 3♣ bid is the villain of this auction is completely wrong. If you won't bid 3♣ WJS on this hand, what hand will you bid 3♣ on?

With due respect I believe both East and West deserve each other.
I do not like 3♣. Yes you agreed to play weak jump overcalls.
But presumably you decided to play them, because you want to preempt opponents not partner.

Ask yourself:
Whose hand is it likely to be, when partner opens in fourth position and both opponents have passed already?
As most people I have general bidding agreements, which are sometimes not suitable for specific rare scenarios, but for which I do not have made any exception.
Just like a passed hand does not get stronger because you passed already, the fact you decided its not a suitable opening preempt does not make it one now.
In fact an initial preempt has more upside in my opinion than now.
Nobody forces you to make a stupid bid, just because your agreements allow for that and no general bidding agreement will make out of a poor bid an effective bid.
Despite agreements you are still allowed to use your brain. A preempt should always carry the implication you know what trumps should be for your side.

Rainer Herrmann.

[whereagles]

@Rainer:

Just a thing here: in my book, a "weak jump shift" is not exactly the same as a "preempt". In a preempt you don't know what pard has. In a weak jump shift you already know he has some cards. The situations are slightly different and, because of this, so are the classic requirements for these bids. In my book:...

A preempt is 6-11 with good suit and offensive hand. But even in a classic style, the suit may eventually be half-broken and there may be some side values.

A weak jump shift goes lower than this: 3-7, suit tends to be weaker than a preempt in top cards, but stronger in intermediates. There should be no side values.

The present hand has a side ace, but the hand is otherwise just about par for the WJS. The perfect example would be xx xx xx QJT98xxx. Too weak for a pree, ok for the WJS (a min, obviously). The main message of the WJS is "let me play this contract." (I.e. there can hardly be a game on, which isn't always so after a pree.)

Because of this theoretical difference, I would not oppose passing initially and bidding the WJS now. Obviously, this doesn't exclude using judgement. Passing 2nd round and/or opening 3♣ initially are perfectly fine actions. I just wanted to make clear pree and WJS are not always the one and same thing (though in many cases they may overlap).

Final note: my "book" may be different from yours. If yours happens to say "pree = WJS", then please forget my ramblings

[jogs]

ArtK78, on 2014-May-13, 15:36, said:

That is all well and good, but this partnership was playing weak jump shifts. And, if you are playing weak jump shifts, this hand certainly qualifies as one.

This board is anecdotal evidence that WJS in contested auctions is a poor strategy. If EW defends 3♥, the possible results are -140,+50 and +100.

[ArtK78]

jogs, on 2014-May-15, 10:57, said:

This board is anecdotal evidence that WJS in contested auctions is a poor strategy. If EW defends 3♥, the possible results are -140,+50 and +100.

I don't see the connection between your first sentence and your second sentence. West will never defend a 3♥ contract by NS whether East makes a weak jump shift or not. In fact, West should make sure that his side gets to 4♠.

On the other hand, if West had a different hand (say, for example, one with some clubs), the weak jump shift would help in determining the final contract.

[mike777]

microcap, on 2014-May-10, 06:45, said:

Rex and I seldom play matchpoints as the opportunities for catastrophe are virtually limitless!

We are having a typically civilized and respectful argument over the following hand:

Warning, this is at least a 2 part question and likely 3 or 4 so it will require coming back after I get responses to part one.

You hold in second position:

---

Before you answer read the following: In our system, as we play 12-16 1NT, partner CANNOT have the typical balanced 11-15 hand with 3-4 diamonds. You are playing weak jump shifts.

It's matchpoints, what do you bid and what are your general thoughts about how this auction will go?

nonexpert answer...I will try 2c
1) I assume pard 1d is a full opener
2) did not open 3c because of outside ace

As for rest of auction, I really like my hand opposite a full real opening bid.

[ArtK78]

mike777, on 2014-May-15, 20:55, said:

As for rest of auction, I really like my hand opposite a full real opening bid.

Why?

[mike777]

I think I have pretty good playing strength as a passed hand, limited.
granted no defense.

[the hog]

Rainer, I agree with parts of your comment. However this pair had agreed to play wjs. (OK, I don't like them either). This hand IS a wjs. To criticise partner for making the system bid is silly. If you don't like it, change the system.
It would seem that Jay agrees in reality as well, as he has not bothered to come back and try to defend the indefensible.