[zenbiddist]

Playing Roman Keycard

We had this auction, and it led me to a few questions you might be able to help me with:

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Should it have gone:

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After RKC and king response, what is the meaning of a new suit at the six level? (ie if North had bid 6♥ over 6♦)
Another question: what kind of hand would South have to bid 3♠ over 3♥? Obviously a decent hand, but does it deny a control or carry any other implication?
Also, is it a common treatment to play 5NT over a 5-level control bid as keycard?

Thanks for reading

[the_clown]

Hi,

As a general rule it is not a good idea to use RKC when you have void. Your partner could have the ♥A instead of the king of ♠ in which case you would rather play a small slam. There are 2 ways to get around this:

1. You can let partner Keycard and then have a special response to show your void. For example I play that 5N over 4N shows even number of KC and a void, while 6x shows odd Number and a void.

2. You can use Exclusion Keycard, which basically asks partner to show all his KC excluding the Heart Ace. A jump to 5♥ over 4♣ would be Exclusion Keycard.

Hope this helps.

[Lord Molyb]

3♥ is a mini-splinter? 4♣, 4♦ I'm assuming are cuebids? What does 5♦ mean?
As far as I know 5NT in this situation is grand slam force, asking for 2 of the top three honors in the trump suit.
If 5♦ as well as 4♣ and 4♦ is a cue bid, 5NT as GSF is practically textbook here.
4NT as keycard with a void is frowned upon usually.

[zenbiddist]

the_clown, on 2013-December-24, 08:29, said:

...
1. You can let partner Keycard and then have a special response to show your void. For example I play that 5N over 4N shows even number of KC and a void, while 6x shows odd Number and a void.

2. You can use Exclusion Keycard, which basically asks partner to show all his KC excluding the Heart Ace. A jump to 5♥ over 4♣ would be Exclusion Keycard.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, Exclusion / void-showing responses very useful. In this instance using 5NT as keycard (if understood) seems safe because partner didn't cue hearts, so the response can be deciphered (i.e. 2+Q response must be ♠KQ and ♣A). But I'm trying to avoid developing an idiosynchratic approach that could confuse a new partner, so thanks for the tips!

[zenbiddist]

Lord Molyb, on 2013-December-24, 08:31, said:

3♥ is a mini-splinter? 4♣, 4♦ I'm assuming are cuebids? What does 5♦ mean?
As far as I know 5NT in this situation is grand slam force, asking for 2 of the top three honors in the trump suit.
If 5♦ as well as 4♣ and 4♦ is a cue bid, 5NT as GSF is practically textbook here.
4NT as keycard with a void is frowned upon usually.

I presumed 3♥ would be a splinter as it's an unnecessary jump. Partner was on the same page. 4♣, 4♦, 5♦: control bids 1st round then 2nd. Out of curiosity, why play GSF if playing keycard? It's good to know what a new partner would expect though, thanks.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

zenbiddist, on 2013-December-24, 05:27, said:

Playing Roman Keycard

We had this auction, and it led me to a few questions you might be able to help me with:

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1D - 1S
3H! - 4C
4D - 4NT ( RKC )
5NT ( 2 + void ; obviously ♥ void )
...... 6S ( I can't count to a sure 13 tricks )

[zenbiddist]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-December-24, 09:18, said:

1D - 1S
3H! - 4C
4D - 4NT ( RKC )
5NT ( 2 + void ; obviously ♥ void )
...... 6S ( I can't count to a sure 13 tricks )

That looks good.
By the way, after a keycard response, then a king response, what is a new suit at the six level? Gotta be a grand slam try but is it asking or showing? I've always avoided the bid for consufions' sake but I'd love to know.

[ArtK78]

zenbiddist, on 2013-December-24, 05:27, said:

Playing Roman Keycard

We had this auction, and it led me to a few questions you might be able to help me with:

---

Should it have gone:

---

After RKC and king response, what is the meaning of a new suit at the six level? (ie if North had bid 6♥ over 6♦)
Another question: what kind of hand would South have to bid 3♠ over 3♥? Obviously a decent hand, but does it deny a control or carry any other implication?
Also, is it a common treatment to play 5NT over a 5-level control bid as keycard?

Thanks for reading

My regular partner and I have an agreement that RKC following a splinter is exclusion, as you would not splinter to describe your hand to your partner, giving him control of the auction, and then retake control of the auction by bidding RKC. Either you describe your hand to partner and let him take control or you take control. You should not be shifting control of the auction from one partner to the other - it only creates confusion (in my opinion).

So, your hypothetical auction - heart splinter followed by RKC - is the way we might bid the hand. By the way, the "jump reverse" as we play it shows either an invitational splinter or a splinter in a hand too good to just force to game. The jump to 4♥ would be a game forcing splinter without significant extras. Given that you intended to bid RKC over partner's response, the 3♥ splinter is safer, regardless of what your agreement was. This is not a common agreement. I have seen some posters who have the agreement that 3♥ is a splinter with a singleton and 4♥ is a void splinter. In either case, you should only describe your hand to partner if you want to have partner take control of the auction.

In my partnership, the auction that you had at the table contains an inference that you have a singleton heart, as you splintered and then did NOT bid RKC. Unless we intend to follow up the splinter with exclusion, we tend to avoid splintering with voids. Partner is entitled to believe that the ace in a splinter suit is a useful card.

After the response to 4NT exclusion RKC (again, my agreement) and the king showing response of 6♦, 6♥ should say that I am still interested in a grand - do you have another useful card? Not only does partner have extras opposite a heart void strong spade raise, he has enough that he should have bid 7♠ on the previous round (assuming that 5NT guaranteed that the partnership had all of the relevant key cards). So my auction would have been the same as your hypothetical auction, but the grand would have been reached over 5NT.

[broze]

ArtK78, on 2013-December-24, 09:29, said:

My regular partner and I have an agreement that RKC following a splinter is exclusion, as you would not splinter to describe your hand to your partner, giving him control of the auction, and then retake control of the auction by bidding RKC. Either you describe your hand to partner and let him take control or you take control. You should not be shifting control of the auction from one partner to the other - it only creates confusion (in my opinion).

What about this?

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[ArtK78]

broze, on 2013-December-24, 09:58, said:

What about this?

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What about it?

If I were to take another action other than 4♠, which I would not after bidding 4♣, it would be 5♦.

[zenbiddist]

ArtK78, on 2013-December-24, 09:29, said:

My regular partner and I have an agreement...

Those agreements makes a lot of sense to me. Cheers! I'll re-read at a more sane hour (3:30am)

[broze]

ArtK78, on 2013-December-24, 10:16, said:

What about it?

If I were to take another action other than 4♠, which I would not after bidding 4♣, it would be 5♦.

Fair enough. I was trying to present a hand that I think would be a clear move over 4♥. P has shown a slam try without a diamond control opposite 9-11, and we have a max with AK♦. I couldn't stomach signing off in my partnership but if you and your p are on the same page about it then I guess that's fine. My point was that you would have to forego Keycard in that spot but I suppose it won't hurt that much.

[Fluffy]

I don't understand 4♦ over 4♣, you have a void!, show it!

[zenbiddist]

Fluffy, on 2013-December-24, 18:32, said:

I don't understand 4♦ over 4♣, you have a void!, show it!

I was playing with someone I've only played with a couple of times, so I presumed we were bidding first round controls up the line.

[Lorne50]

Fluffy, on 2013-December-24, 18:32, said:

I don't understand 4♦ over 4♣, you have a void!, show it!

I think 4♦ is correct. You want to know if partner has A♣, K♦ , KQ♠. Telling him you have a void needs him to work out you have a long running diamond suit which may not be possible, but by saying you have the diamond ace he is free to show the K which tells you the only thing in doubt is trumps.

The only error in the auction was playing 5N as RKC - if it was a trump ask like most would play then the grand would be reached easily and with 100% confidence on the auction given.

[jogs]

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How would you bid this pair of hands? Do we want to be in seven?

[barmar]

jogs, on 2013-December-27, 09:56, said:

How would you bid this pair of hands? Do we want to be in seven?

Who is the dealer?

The grand looks pretty good, especially if the defenders are kind enough not to lead a trump. But good luck finding it with only 28 HCP and duplication in hearts.

[mycroft]

See OP - dealer N. Only difference is that the ♦K is the ♥K in South. Any arguments about North taking control have to deal with this case, was jogs' point, I assume.

[jogs]

Change the hands to this.

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Why does North bid RKC? How does he know there is no duplication in hearts?

On the OP's bidding, I don't see how North can count 13 tricks during the
auction.

The hands could be

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[Zelandakh]

As Art has already pointed out, the first question is the difference between a 3♥ and a 4♥ rebid. If 4♥ shows a game forcing hand with a heart void then this would be a good alternative. The next interesting call is 4♦. Fluffy would bid 4♥ but that again raises the question of the differnce from a direct 4♥ and more than that creates confusion regarding the presence of a diamond control. Without an explicit agreement, most would not take 4NT here as XRKCB. South's third call is probably the most interesting of all. I guess most would choose a simple 4NT here but the actual choice of 5♦ to show a top honour in diamonds should also work out well. Where the auction went wrong is North's 5NT. First of all this would normally be the Grand Slam Force. Secondly, this is an ideal time to show the heart void with 5♥. After 5♥, South can pretty much just bid seven but in an established partnership could also make one last check with a Grand Slam Force 5NT, assuming the responses being used differentiate zero from one top spade honour.