BBO Discussion Forums: Can you pinpoint a shortage below 3NT after a 1NT opening? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Can you pinpoint a shortage below 3NT after a 1NT opening?

#1 User is offline   rhm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,092
  • Joined: 2005-June-27

Posted 2013-December-21, 05:45

Modern bidding philosophy does not worry about small doubletons when opening or responding to 1NT.
One reason is that if a suit is wide open, chances for alternate game contracts given that you loose two tricks already in the unstopped suit are not that promising anyway and the information leakage is serious.
However, when responder is unbalanced the odds change. Assume responder to be strong enough for game but not slam oriented.
Over minor suit oriented hands modern structures often have ways to show shortages below 3NT.
Bur standard response structures make it difficult to do the same when responder hold a four or five card major.

For example from a recent Swiss team club tournament:


The bidding usually went like given above and at all tables South played 3NT two down. when 5 and even 4 would have been much better and in fact would have made.
While I am not claiming that one can not avoid 3NT, standard responses do not make it easy for North to ask for a four card heart suit and then pinpoint his singleton spade.

Another example from Bridge winners:


Somebody pointed out that South might have bid 3 instead of 3 at his second turn.
Nevertheöess this only works with precisely 5 hearts and a shortage in spades and no other combination.

If you have some suggestion how to deal with such scenarios I am interested.

Rainer Herrmann
1

#2 User is online   awm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,375
  • Joined: 2005-February-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zurich, Switzerland

Posted 2013-December-21, 09:48

Sam and my notrump system solves this problem, among others. Here's how it works:

1NT - 3M = four cards in the bid major, singleton or void in the other major, normally kind of three-suited like 4144, 41(35), 40(45), 40(36)
1NT - 3D = four-plus diamonds, singleton or void in clubs, no 5M, we normally assume 3-4 in each major although we have no specific bid for (23)71

Opener can bid 3M over 3D to look for 4-4 fits. In general opener bidding the short suit in these auctions shows a "perfecto" with no wastage in the short suit (helps with light slam bidding). These bids are an absolute GF, we cannot stop in 4m. Bidding is sort of scramble-like, with responder's subsequent 3NT being removed by opener with a weak holding in the shortness and opener's 3NT suggesting cards in the short suit.

1NT - 3C = transfer to diamonds, weak or GF; can be 5D in a GF hand with (31)54 shape; subsequent 3M bid shows shortness in the other major normally 3163/3154/3064 shape (although we have no specific bid for 2173 and would presumably also bid this way, we normally assume 3M in the bid suit so opener can try 4M with five cards there).

1NT - 2NT = transfer to clubs, weak or GF; can be 5C in a GF hand with (31)45 shape or even 4C if (21)64 GF without slam interest; same as above except transfer followed by 3D shows 10 minor cards in a GF hand.

The above handle all shortnesses without a five-card major except short diamonds specifically. For the diamond shortness:

We play 2C stayman. After 1NT-2C-2X, 3D shows short diamonds without a known major suit fit. Typically this is 4414/(34)15/3316/4405/(34)06. With a known major suit fit we can splinter via 4D or just bid game.

With a five card major (but not four in the other major) we would start with a transfer. Assuming no super-accept, continuations include:

3C = exactly four diamonds; now opener can bid 3D relay and responder bids 3H (high shortage) or 3S (low shortage) or 3NT (5242 not forcing) or 4C+ showing very slammish hands.
3D = five-plus diamonds (actually we bid 4M-6D hands this way too); 3H relays (3S=5M, 3N=4/6 NF, 4C+ 4/6 slammish), 3S sets the major, 3NT to play, others set diamonds

We feel that showing the shortness is less important to the 3NT decision when responder has ten cards in two suits, because opener really needs to have help in both suits for 3NT to play well and we pretty much always have a reasonable alternative contract in our eight-card fit. Of course we can easily locate shortness via cuebidding if we agree a suit and have slam interest.

More continuations after transfers:

2NT = four-plus clubs; 3C relays and then 3D shows five-plus clubs (same as above), 3H shows four clubs with high shortage, 3S shows four clubs with low shortage, 3NT shows 5224 NF (as above).
3H = five-five in the majors; if after a transfer to hearts this is INV only, if after a transfer to spades this is GF
3S = single-suited slam try in the major
3NT = choice of games
4m, 4H after transfer to spades = shortness setting the major
4M = mild slam interest (could have signed off directly over 1NT)
2S (after transfer to hearts) = invitational hand with five-plus hearts

This leaves the 5-4 majors hands, and invites with spades since transfer to spades followed by 2NT is something else. These hands all go through stayman. If opener bids 2M:

2S (over 2H) = invite with five-plus spades, not forcing
2NT = invitational with four in the other major
3C = GF relay (usually to locate a 4-4 minor fit with a mildly slammish balanced or semi-balanced responder hand; can also find opener's 5M this way if we really care)
3D = short diamonds without an obvious major suit fit
3M = invitational
3OM = slam try in the major opener showed, asking for cuebids
4m = splinter with a fit for opener's major
4M = to play

If opener bids 2D:

2S = invite with five-plus spades, not forcing
2N = invitational with a four-card major
3C = GF relay
3D = short diamonds without a major suit fit
3M = GF with four in the bid major, five in the other major, 2-2 in the minors
3NT = to play, presumably shows a four-card major
4m = south african transfer, presumably was 6-4 in the majors now transferring to the six
4M = to play, presumably was 6-4 in the majors
2H = forces opener to bid 2S; some sort of hand with both majors

1NT - 2C - 2D - 2H - 2S:

Pass = five spades and four hearts weak (inverted crawling stayman; with 5H-4S weak we would just transfer to hearts, pass, and hope opponents balance in spades)
2NT = 4S-5H invitational to game (with 5S-4H invite we would have bid 2S over 2D)
3m = shortness in the other minor, with 5/4 majors either way and a GF hand; usually this is (45)(13) but other patterns are possible
3M = 6M with 4OM invitational

This handles all the shortnesses below 3NT. The few sequences not mentioned above:

1NT - 2S = quantitative ask, opener bids 2NT (min) or 3-suit (small doubleton in max) or 3NT (max no small doubleton); this is usually used with a quantitative game invite or with a minor suit invite; responders 3m over 2NT is a NF invite (opener can occasionally bid game over this with a nice fitting hand).
1NT - 4m = south african transfer to major
1NT - 4M = to play
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
1

#3 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,765
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2013-December-21, 12:50

We play:

1. 1NT 3 = precisely four hearts and 0 or 1 spade (and any other shape) for the first hand;

2. 1NT 2; 2 2 = five or more hearts and 0 or 1 spade for the second hand.

These work extremely well for both finding the correct game and as a springboard for slam.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#4 User is offline   rhm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,092
  • Joined: 2005-June-27

Posted 2013-December-21, 13:21

Thanks

Rainer Herrmann
0

#5 User is offline   phoenix214 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 347
  • Joined: 2011-December-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Riga
  • Interests:Bridge; Chess; Boardgames; Physics; Math; Problem solving; and anything that makes my brain thinking.

Posted 2013-December-21, 13:41

What i like is the Revison clubs scheme over 1NT(16-18). The main idea is that you give up on a hand type, which does not yield much gain, to improve other parts, which are more crucial. The hand type that is given up is the flat invitational hand. It goes something like that with 0-7 you pass. With 8 you blast(0-8 and 9 with 15-17), I think i have had one bad hand where this did not pay off. Although to do so, you need to know how good a hand is(I sometimes blast with good 7 counts). Anyhow the scheme:
2-2:
2NT-ST in a minor bal/semi-bal or 4M-6m hand s/o
3X - GF with a three-suited hand(no 5M)
2-2M:
2NT - the same, but 4OM-6m obviously
3 - Short clubs(No 4M) or short M
3M - Balanced ST with M fit
3X - Shortness GF
2-2NT(4-4M):
3-Any non-spade shortage, no 4M
3RED-Transfer
3-short spades, no hearts
2-2:
2-Forcing 2NT
3-short spades
3-short diamonds
3-short clubs
3-2-5-2-4 ST
3NT- 2-5-4-2 ST
4X - 6H-5x ST
2-2:
2NT-Forcing 3
3 - short hearts
3 - short diamonds
3 - short spades
3NT - Puppet to 4(shows 5-2-(4-2))
4X - 6M-5X
1

#6 User is online   awm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,375
  • Joined: 2005-February-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zurich, Switzerland

Posted 2013-December-21, 17:02

Our auctions on the example hands:

1NT - 3 (14xx)
3 - 4 (nothing wasted... five-card club suit)
5 - Pass (five-card diamond suit, max of 26 non-wasted points is not enough for slam)

1NT - 2 (transfer)
2 - 3 (four diamonds)
3 - 3 (typically 1543)
4 - 5 (five-card suit with some spade wastage... not really enough opposite wastage)

In principle south on the second hand could give slam one more try, but if north has an extra diamond instead of the sixth club slam is really quite bad. Even on the actual hand it will require a bit of luck.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
0

#7 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,519
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-December-21, 18:11

For the first hand, I have a highly sophisticated and artificial system.
1N 2C (15-17 balanced...asking for majors)
2D 3C (none...I have longer clubs and a 4-card major)
3D 3H (I have strong diamonds...my major is hearts)
3S 4D (I don't yet know where we want to play...well, if you don't bid 3NT, then it's certainly not 3NT)
5D P
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
0

#8 User is online   mike777 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,817
  • Joined: 2003-October-07
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2013-December-21, 19:24

tough hand: is Axx not enough to bid 3nt and prefer the 4-3 or minor suit fit. In this case yes

agree that after old fashion:


1nt=2c(does not promise 4 card major)
2d=3c(gf)
south is warned at least a bit.
0

#9 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2013-December-22, 08:46

Most standard response structures cannot pattern out all 5431 hands below the 4 level.
Most non-standard response structures can.

There is an obvious and not very exciting conclusion to be drawn from that observation: Choose a bespoke structure (any one) over a standard one.
Glad we cleared that up.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

#10 User is offline   Zelandakh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,696
  • Joined: 2006-May-18
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 2013-December-23, 12:45

As has been pointed out, there are plenty of ways of handling the first hand. Even a Puppet-based system has enough space to show spade shortage and 4 hearts, for example 1NT - 2; 2 - 2; 2NT - 3. There are many other solutions out there too. The second one is tougher but, as Adam already mentioned, second round transfers are probably the best option. Of course, on the given deal another possibility would be to open clubs and have a method of showing this type of hand afterwards.
(-: Zel :-)
0

#11 User is offline   1eyedjack 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,575
  • Joined: 2004-March-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2013-December-24, 03:47

 Zelandakh, on 2013-December-23, 12:45, said:

The second one is tougher but, as Adam already mentioned, second round transfers are probably the best option.

A basic re-transfer system (which I lump into "standard" methods) will get to show 5-4 in the reds, but I think that you are short of space to pattern out the black suits below the 4 level.

The method that I posted in 2004 in these forums is one of several methods that gets around that problem:

http://www.bridgebas...dpost__p__37840


On the second hand it would typically start

1N - 2C (1)
2R (2) - 3D (3)

(1) 4+ Hearts or various GF+ bal or semibal
(2) fewer than 4 Hearts (max v min determined by choice of 2D v 2H) (other continuations with 4+ H, not mentioned here)
(3) GF, 5-4 or 4-5 in H + D, denies Club short (opener can look for 5th Heart or Spade short below 3N)
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

"Gentlemen, when the barrage lifts." 9th battalion, King's own Yorkshire light infantry,
2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

"I will be with you, whatever". Blair to Bush, precursor to invasion of Iraq
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users