[Cyberyeti]

 MickyB, on 2013-November-27, 01:46, said:

1♦-P-3♦ denies a four-card major but a vulnerable weak two can be 5-4 in the majors?

Strangely yes, NV a weak 2 can be a 4-4 0 count.

[PhilKing]

Had you alerted the 1♠ response as showing specifically 5 bad spades you would have been better placed ...

[Cyberyeti]

 PhilKing, on 2013-November-27, 04:34, said:

Had you alerted the 1♠ response as showing specifically 5 bad spades you would have been better placed ...

Does it need alerting ? I hadn't considered that. Basically it's going to be a hand like AKJx, xxxx, xxx, xx unsuitable for our "other 2 suits" negative double or 5 non good spades (the break probably comes somewhere between AJxxx and AJ109x) all the time.

[paulg]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-25, 07:48, said:

The other thing you need to know is that NS play somewhat unconventional weak 2s, so S as dealer at game all would have opened any 6 card spade suit, and any good 5 card spade suit unsuitable for a rule of 19 1 opener (and not containing 2 aces).

I guess, like many others, that although I believe you may open any 6 card spade suit, that is not the same as opening every hand with a 6-card spade suit. And perhaps a hand with a couple of points and seven spades to the 10 might decide to pass when vulnerable and then bid like this.

[Cyberyeti]

 paulg, on 2013-November-27, 06:44, said:

I guess, like many others, that although I believe you may open any 6 card spade suit, that is not the same as opening every hand with a 6-card spade suit. And perhaps a hand with a couple of points and seven spades to the 10 might decide to pass when vulnerable and then bid like this.

We have many many examples of hands like 7 spades to the 10 being opened 3 NV and 2 V, this is just routine for us, I certainly never pass them, partner has occasionally, usually for bad results when I've assumed he can't have that hand, so I think he's now over that and also opens all of them. There are hands that we might conceivably pass, 10xxxxx, x, x, AQJxx, or as quoted above Axxxxx, xx, xx, Axx, but we won't ever be pulling a natural 3N to 4♠ on those.

[dburn]

Pass is automatic. 5♦ is illegal.

[barmar]

 paulg, on 2013-November-27, 06:44, said:

I guess, like many others, that although I believe you may open any 6 card spade suit, that is not the same as opening every hand with a 6-card spade suit.

From the way he wrote it, it seems like 5-card suits are subject to a suit quality test, but practically all 6-card suits are opened. He said "would have", not "might have".

So his 4♠ bid means he either violated the agreement about opening all 6-card suits as a weak 2, or he misunderstood 3NT. The UI tells us that it's definitely the latter, so the question is whether you have enough experience with this partner to rule out the former. If so, then there's only one LA, and the UI doesn't constrain you. But if the system violation is a possibility, then pass is an LA, and the UI forces you to choose it.

[FrancesHinden]

I gave this as a bidding problem to my bridge partner last night, including all the constraints.
He said
- 4S isn't making
then he thought for a bit and said
- 5D isn't making either
I asked him what he was going to do and he said he didn't know, maybe he would bid 5D maybe he would pass

I asked him what he would do if 3NT had been explained as 4441 and he said 'pass, of course'

I'm not quite sure why it is "impossible" that partner has a natural 4S bid, given that in an adjacent thread you had a 1444 and made a bid showing 5 diamonds and no 4-card major. Sometimes partners warp the system and hope we field it.
I once passed with 8 hearts in first seat by accident, when I jumped to 4H later I got a long, long pause from partner who (with no UI) eventually shrugged and said 'she forgot to open' and passed.

[Cyberyeti]

 FrancesHinden, on 2013-November-28, 16:57, said:

I once passed with 8 hearts in first seat by accident, when I jumped to 4H later I got a long, long pause from partner who (with no UI) eventually shrugged and said 'she forgot to open' and passed.

I haven't done that, but have opened 1N with a 4234 only to find both black suits were clubs at the point partner transferred to spades.

[GreenMan]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-28, 17:26, said:

I haven't done that, but have opened 1N with a 4234 only to find both black suits were clubs at the point partner transferred to spades.

There's a recent thread on BridgeWinners about Kit Woolsey doing this in a tournament.

[Vampyr]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-26, 18:17, said:

Both constructive but NF for us, not passed often, 9-12 ish 6 spades (or occasionally less with more spades prepared to bid 3♠), it's not the standard drop dead for us.

Is that standard? It seems to me that constructive is more popular.

[mycroft]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-28, 17:26, said:

I haven't done that, but have opened 1N with a 4234 only to find both black suits were clubs at the point partner transferred to spades.

I did that, but luckily it was the other way around. Partner actually guessed right when asked what the 4M response to Stayman was.

[jallerton]

 jallerton, on 2013-November-26, 17:00, said:

You said in the opening post that the 3NT bidder believed that 3NT was natural, not that he was unsure of its meaning. Playing with screens, he would presumably still be under this impression. For most people the reaction would be "what sort of hand must partner have for this sequence", not "Oh, I must have got the sytem wrong when partner rebids his suit"!

Tell me: in your system, what do the following uncontested sequences mean:

(i) Pass-1♦-1♠-2♦-2♠
(ii) Pass-1♦-1♠-2♣-2♠?

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-26, 18:17, said:

Both constructive but NF for us, not passed often, 9-12 ish 6 spades (or occasionally less with more spades prepared to bid 3♠), it's not the standard drop dead for us.

 Vampyr, on 2013-November-29, 07:40, said:

Is that standard? It seems to me that constructive is more popular.

No, that's a not a popular treatment of the sequences I asked about because most people tend to have opened most 9-12ish hands with 6 spades either 1♠ or 2♠.

[nige1]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-25, 07:48, said:

The other thing you need to know is that NS play somewhat unconventional weak 2s, so S as dealer at game all would have opened any 6 card spade suit, and any good 5 card spade suit unsuitable for a rule of 19 1 opener (and not containing 2 aces).

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-27, 02:42, said:

Strangely yes, NV a weak 2 can be a 4-4 0 count.

 jallerton, on 2013-November-26, 17:00, said:

Tell me: in your system, what do the following uncontested sequences mean:
(i) Pass-1♦-1♠-2♦-2♠
(ii) Pass-1♦-1♠-2♣-2♠?

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-26, 18:17, said:

Both constructive but NF for us, not passed often, 9-12 ish 6 spades (or occasionally less with more spades prepared to bid 3♠), it's not the standard drop dead for us.

IMO CyberYeti has misread JAllerton's question. Under CyberYeti's agreements a passed hand has at most 5 poor ♠, depending on vulnerability. So JAllerton may be hinting that responding 1♠ and then rebidding 2♠ shows at most 4-5 cards (if 5 then the suit is poor).

[jallerton]

Yes, he probably did misread my question.

But I would like Cyberyeti to tell us whether or not these sequences have ever come up when he has been playing with his regular partner. If they were to have this sequence and if Cyberyeti were the opening bidder, what hand type would Cyberyeti play his partner for?

[PhilKing]

 jallerton, on 2013-November-30, 04:10, said:

Yes, he probably did misread my question.

But I would like Cyberyeti to tell us whether or not these sequences have ever come up when he has been playing with his regular partner. If they were to have this sequence and if Cyberyeti were the opening bidder, what hand type would Cyberyeti play his partner for?

Five weak spades and five clubs NF?

[lamford]

One interpretation of 4♠ in the authorised auction is a choice of pointed-suit games, unsuitable for playing 3NT. Probably six spades and four diamonds. And perhaps two aces because of the absence of a weak two opener. LAs are decided using the methods of the partnership, so it is not right to shrug and pass, knowing that Four Spades is not going to make. What is suggested by the UI is only relevant after the LAs have been chosen.

[Fluffy]

 Cyberyeti, on 2013-November-28, 17:26, said:

I haven't done that, but have opened 1N with a 4234 only to find both black suits were clubs at the point partner transferred to spades.

 mycroft, on 2013-November-29, 11:01, said:

I did that, but luckily it was the other way around. Partner actually guessed right when asked what the 4M response to Stayman was.

Gotta be common, my father did that with a 7330 in a european championship, got transfered into one of the 3 card suits, and eventually partner invited to grand slam, he gladly sayd yes

[Cyberyeti]

 jallerton, on 2013-November-29, 14:21, said:

No, that's a not a popular treatment of the sequences I asked about because most people tend to have opened most 9-12ish hands with 6 spades either 1♠ or 2♠.

Sorry, missed the passes on the front.

The first will be 5♠/5-7♣ not quite enough to open 1, unsuitable for 2♠ so Jxxxx, xx, void, AQxxxx maybe.

The second I can't see at all, no idea.

Neither has actually come up.

[lamford]

 barmar, on 2013-November-27, 10:04, said:

But if the system violation is a possibility, then pass is an LA.

But 16B1(b) defines an LA as "<snip> using the methods of the partnership", so, even if system violation is possible, LAs are decided assuming that the methods of the partnership are being used.