[McBruce]

 pran, on 2013-December-28, 02:52, said:

Quite interesting information, but for a different reason: What is the expected life of your card packs?

I have been supplying machine-dealt boards since 1990 with the same boards being re-dealt and used about 50 times a year. We have an absolute rule that my customers may never shuffle and deal boards manually. My experience is that I shall have to replace boards after some 20 to 25 years, and I believe other suppliers of machine dealt boards have similar experiences.

Compare that to the expected life of cards in clubs where they shuffle and deal cards manually for each event, they typically have to replace their cards each year or so.

So whatever event, Swiss or otherwise, my customers receive and use machine-dealt boards for the complete events. In the long run that pays off for everybody.

In this neck of the woods we have the PlayBridge duplicating machine that reads not barcodes but the actual card corners. We also have a supplier who makes excellent aluminum boards and supplies decent plastic cards. I am told that the process is faster with the flip-top boards but I have never used one. But the supplier takes the same 20-40 sets around to various week-long tournaments in the area, perhaps 15-20 in a year, and thus they are used much more than 50 times a year. Most ACBL regional tournaments will see each set used at least ten times over the course of 18 sessions in seven days.


I would guess that the cards should be replaced about once every 12-18 months, but this doesn't happen and I spend the first day of every tournament doing two things simultaneously: preduplicating the first 3-4 sessions worth of needed sets (for pair games only, not Swiss or KO), and removing the older cards that the machine has trouble identifying, and putting these into board sets that will be assigned to the KO area of the room for most of the week.

I know that in Europe and other non-ACBL areas preduplicated boards are expected, but at the largest regionals here I sometimes make 20-25 sets of boards (1-36 usually) for one day's pair events alone, and this is only half of the people who play: the KO and Swiss events are about the same number of tables. To cover all of them we would need multiple machines and operators. We would also need to teach players and caddies the procedures used where predupes are available for KOs and Swisses, which is something that ACBL players do very poorly (since it would involve listening and following instructions instead of doing it the way we did it in 1958). For the final A/X Swiss I often make five sets of 32 boards for the top ten teams in the Flight A event, so that the top ten teams* can have preduplicated boards. I'm guessing that in Norway, five sets of eight would cover twenty tables (ten matches), each table getting two to start with and pass down a table when done. Here the TDs insist on each match having its own set of boards, because the players would never figure out such an unusual system.

*Another interesting problem is that ACBLScore matches teams on the fly, before all results are in, and the TDs actually have to guess what VP Score will put a team into the top ten, meriting predupes!

With the PlayBridge machines, and I guess the newer Jannerstens that read the indices instead of the bar codes, the biggest problem with cards becomes fading indices. A missing speck on a spade symbol can make it look like a club or even a diamond (the optical reader does not see colour). Much of the time the card works with a 180 switch, but when you have three or more such cards in a deck, the time it takes goes way up. I think the machines would be much better if they had two optical readers, one for each corner, the second one being used if the first read was doubtful.

[pran]

Some facts from Norway:

Mitchell-style events are never played (well, you could meet one exceptionally, but that would be a great surprise to the contestants and they would certainly not appreciate it unless having been told so in advance).

Events (whether for teams or pairs) are always played as barometer, i.e. rounds with the same boards are played simultaneously at all tables (and scored immediately after each round).

With 2 Boards/round we normally provide each table with a complete set of boards for the round, i.e. the number of duplicates equals the number of tables. (For the largest event I was involved in we provided 43 sets of 170 Boards.)

With 3 Boards/round we may provide each table with a complete set of boards for the round, but more common in ordinary events is to provide a complete set for every two tables, i.e. the number of duplicates equals half the number of tables.

With more than 3 Boards/round we usually provide a number of boards expected to be sufficient (calculated according to a standard formula) and have the players exchange boards at centrally located table.

Events for teams are usually played with at least 8 Boards/round and it is not uncommon to have at least 10 teams playing series or at least 20 teams playing swiss simultaneously. As far as boards are concerned these events are provided with boards in exactly the same way as events for pairs.

The older duplicating machines in Norway read bar codes, newer machines read corner symbols and I am not aware that the life expectancy for the cards differs between these versions. Both machine types have proved very reliable.

[blackshoe]

One of my colleagues commented that "I bet they're using plastic cards [in Norway]". We're not here. The local organization is not gonna spring for plastic cards. We have the bar code reading style of duplimate. That's not going to be upgraded. We have 18 board sets. The local organization isn't gonna spring for more board sets. We have some ten games a week here, most averaging around 8 to 10 tables. One game averages about 30 to 35 tables. Mitchells are common. Web movements were recently introduced, and the directors seem to like them. Everything else, including barometers, is rare. We don't use pre-duplicated boards for team games, which we have occasionally. Infrequently enough that I couldn't state an average number of tables for them.

[pran]

 blackshoe, on 2013-December-31, 20:46, said:

One of my colleagues commented that "I bet they're using plastic cards [in Norway]". We're not here. The local organization is not gonna spring for plastic cards. We have the bar code reading style of duplimate. That's not going to be upgraded. We have 18 board sets. The local organization isn't gonna spring for more board sets. We have some ten games a week here, most averaging around 8 to 10 tables. One game averages about 30 to 35 tables. Mitchells are common. Web movements were recently introduced, and the directors seem to like them. Everything else, including barometers, is rare. We don't use pre-duplicated boards for team games, which we have occasionally. Infrequently enough that I couldn't state an average number of tables for them.

You should accept that bet and cash in, we don't!

[blackshoe]

 pran, on 2014-January-01, 03:29, said:

You should accept that bet and cash in, we don't!

Heh. Well, then the only things I can think of that might explain the great difference in the lifetimes of our respective cards are: 1) Norwegians are inherently less messy than Americans or don't serve food at all during games or 2) in comparable sized events, you spread usage amongst many more boards than we do. Probably the latter.

We do have another problem I just thought of, which we are trying to correct: our players have got in the habit of taking a pen to the bar code of cards they consider "unacceptable", thus resulting in the requirement to replace an entire deck, possible earlier than should really be needed (we get a lot of "these cards are sticky" comments - probably related to the food issue).

RABA voted in their last meeting last year to increase the charge for pre-duplication from $4 per set to $5. I don't know how the club owners feel about that - it goes into effect today. I do know that a year or so ago, when a colleague checked around the country, he found that most places that charge for the service were charging $6 a set. I also know that our treasurer's analysis at that time of the income and expenditures related to the duplimating indicated that $4 per set was insufficient to cover the costs, which include the cost of printing hand records for the players.

[Vampyr]

 McBruce, on 2013-December-31, 18:00, said:

. I'm guessing that in Norway, five sets of eight would cover twenty tables (ten matches), each table getting two to start with and pass down a table when done. Here the TDs insist on each match having its own set of boards, because the players would never figure out such an unusual system.

That's how we do it here. It is not really unusual, because boards are passed down a table in Mitchell movements (which we usually have for pair games that are not Swiss Pairs.)

Quote

*Another interesting problem is that ACBLScore matches teams on the fly, before all results are in, and the TDs actually have to guess what VP Score will put a team into the top ten, meriting predupes!

When I was at the Nationals, I saw that teams were matched in the labour-intensive old-fashioned way. We use Bridgemate 2, which gives you your assignments directly. This method is convenient for all. Also Swiss Teams run much more smoothly with the Australian system, but of course this is not an option if you don't have preduplicated boards. (If you decided to use the latter, you would get back some of the cost of another operator, since you wouldn't need caddies.)

 blackshoe, on 2014-January-01, 14:57, said:

We do have another problem I just thought of, which we are trying to correct: our players have got in the habit of taking a pen to the bar code of cards they consider "unacceptable", thus resulting in the requirement to replace an entire deck, possible earlier than should really be needed (we get a lot of "these cards are sticky" comments - probably related to the food issue).

This is outrageous. In England I would not be surprised if a played who defaced cards in that way were chucked out of the event.

Quote

RABA voted in their last meeting last year to increase the charge for pre-duplication from $4 per set to $5. I don't know how the club owners feel about that - it goes into effect today. I do know that a year or so ago, when a colleague checked around the country, he found that most places that charge for the service were charging $6 a set. I also know that our treasurer's analysis at that time of the income and expenditures related to the duplimating indicated that $4 per set was insufficient to cover the costs, which include the cost of printing hand records for the players.

Why don't clubs have their own machines? Here even once-a-week clubs usually have them,

[GreenMan]

 Vampyr, on 2014-January-01, 16:03, said:

When I was at the Nationals, I saw that teams were matched in the labour-intensive old-fashioned way.

The NAmerican Nationals? Someone on here once said that ACBLScore doesn't play well with the pads they use at NABCs, hence the manual entering of scores (though that's supposed to change with the next version of the software).

[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2014-January-01, 16:03, said:

This is outrageous. In England I would not be surprised if a played who defaced cards in that way were chucked out of the event.

I suggested requiring the defacer to pay for the new deck, but I was ignored.

 Vampyr, on 2014-January-01, 16:03, said:

Why don't clubs have their own machines? Here even once-a-week clubs usually have them,

Simply put, they're too cheap. In their defense, it would require the club's sole proprietor to buy his machine out of his own pocket. There's only one club here that makes enough that might be possible, and she won't do it even if it is.

[aguahombre]

I would not characterize a Club which would have to pay $4K outlay for equipment and clears about 1K per year as "too cheap". Some clubs are not even privately owned, but rather a Bridge community-run organization which gives back any meager year-end profit to the players in the form of a party or such.

Proprietors who do make a bit of profit for their efforts can't exactly use it to buy a yacht. Perhaps there are places where there will be a high-rise built in the name of some Bridge corporation, but for the most part the idea is to provide a game for those who enjoy the game.

[GreenMan]

 aguahombre, on 2014-January-02, 03:52, said:

I would not characterize a Club which would have to pay $4K outlay for equipment and clears about 1K per year as "too cheap". Some clubs are not even privately owned, but rather a Bridge community-run organization which gives back any meager year-end profit to the players in the form of a party or such.

Proprietors who do make a bit of profit for their efforts can't exactly use it to buy a yacht. Perhaps there are places where there will be a high-rise built in the name of some Bridge corporation, but for the most part the idea is to provide a game for those who enjoy the game.

This. The club in one city where I used to live doesn't have the business to justify the expense, but it got one anyway, and provides sets of boards to nearby clubs for a fee. In effect, several organizers are sharing one machine.

[Mbodell]

 McBruce, on 2013-December-31, 18:00, said:

In this neck of the woods we have the PlayBridge duplicating machine that reads not barcodes but the actual card corners. We also have a supplier who makes excellent aluminum boards and supplies decent plastic cards. I am told that the process is faster with the flip-top boards but I have never used one. But the supplier takes the same 20-40 sets around to various week-long tournaments in the area, perhaps 15-20 in a year, and thus they are used much more than 50 times a year. Most ACBL regional tournaments will see each set used at least ten times over the course of 18 sessions in seven days.

Yeah, around here where our clubs have the machines most of our club directors direct multiple sessions in a week and probably make the cards (between different sessions, sectionals, regional, etc.) closer to 150-200 times a year rather than 50 times a year.

But rather than the speed with which cards are replaced in the US can we bang the drum for hand records for all KO and Swiss events? Is it really that hard?

[blackshoe]

 GreenMan, on 2014-January-02, 04:06, said:

This. The club in one city where I used to live doesn't have the business to justify the expense, but it got one anyway, and provides sets of boards to nearby clubs for a fee. In effect, several organizers are sharing one machine.

That's exactly what we're doing here. The difference is that RABA is a formal organization, a subdivision of unit 112. And IIRC, without some fairly large donations by a couple of our wealthier players, even RABA would not have had the money to buy a machine.

[Vampyr]

I don't understand any of this. I am a member of a club that charges £12/year for membership and £5/weekly session (very cheap by London standards), and pays London rent. We average probably 12 tables/week and have had no trouble affording a Duplimate machine and Bridgemates.

We also offer free coffee, tea and biscuits. We so not provide boards to anyone else.

[blackshoe]

Clubs here do not charge for "membership". Technically, I suppose they don't have members, just customers who come to play bridge. Table fees run $7 per player per session. $6.50 at the one large (30 some tables) club.

[Vampyr]

Here membership of an affiliated club entitles you to EBU membership, reduced table money, and the right to represent the club in various competitions. The club will often pay the entry fees for these competitions as well.

[blackshoe]

Different strokes…

[mycroft]

I can't imagine charging $6 for a set of hands; even at "reduced rates", my time for collecting and distributing would be more than that, never mind actually running the boards and making the hand records. If "printing the hand records" means more than one sheet the recipient can copy - if I have to make 10 tables worth of HRs - then I would guess that it would cost me $6 just to do that.

So, yeah. That's not even enough to cover costs, never mind labour. I'd be looking at $10 a set for one copy of the HRs - and the club owners responsible for transportation both ways (I'd be willing to do a deal if I played at a particular club, or they wanted 8 sets a week and had 10 sets :-).

[Zelandakh]

 blackshoe, on 2014-January-01, 14:57, said:

Heh. Well, then the only things I can think of that might explain the great difference in the lifetimes of our respective cards are

I think the big difference was contained in pran's last post - they play barometer tournaments. That probably means the cards are used about 10 times more often per session for you than him. So your 3 years and his 20-25 years are not so different, and perhaps actually more favourable for Americans.

[pran]

 Zelandakh, on 2014-January-15, 07:48, said:

I think the big difference was contained in pran's last post - they play barometer tournaments. That probably means the cards are used about 10 times more often per session for you than him. So your 3 years and his 20-25 years are not so different, and perhaps actually more favourable for Americans.

Oddly enough I have never thought of it that way, but yes your thoughts are indeed reasonable.

Instead of having just one copy of each board, shuffled and dealt at the table, we typically have from four to ten copies (depending on the number of tables and boards per round) and the net result is that each copy is handled at only a fraction of the tables.

However, I am still convinced that we save a lot of wear on the cards by not shuffling them. The card machine is far more gentle with the cards than any person shuffling them.

[Vampyr]

 pran, on 2014-January-15, 08:14, said:

However, I am still convinced that we save a lot of wear on the cards by not shuffling them. The card machine is far more gentle with the cards than any person shuffling them.

Yes, it is shuffling that causes cards to wear out, not dealing or handling them (well, not nearly as much, anyway).