[PhilG007]

Many partnerships now play the so called "Mini No Trump" showing 10-12 points balanced non vul
Good idea or foolhardy(?)

[blackshoe]

I find it an interesting idea, and would like to try it some day, but not having done so, I can't answer the question.

[ArtK78]

Been playing it for 25 years. Terrible idea.

Seriously, it is very effective when ;you don't get too greedy.

[TylerE]

Works well for me, we play it 1st/2nd NV or =. Really need to be playing a strong club to make it work though.

[Cyberyeti]

TylerE, on 2013-September-30, 16:45, said:

Works well for me, we play it 1st/2nd NV or =. Really need to be playing a strong club to make it work though.

This or a system with 2+ card club and diamond with the balanced ranges split between them.

I used to play a 10-15 (later 11-16) NT 1st and 2nd which was a good laugh and got great results, but you need a lot of system to sort that out, something saner with a wide but smaller range allows you to play a more normal system alongside it.

[TylerE]

What did you use over that?

I guess you could use like a modified 2 way stayman?

e.g. 1N-2♣-foo-2N says go only if really max, and 1N-2♦ says go if not minimum, with a 3N rebid if opener is accepting the invite without a major.

[Cyberyeti]

TylerE, on 2013-September-30, 16:55, said:

What did you use over that?

4 card invitational or better red suit transfers (responses 3 2 point ranges without support then 3 with), 2♣ as the bucket bid with strange responses. X and 2N as different range Lebensohls.

[ArtK78]

I play it in a light opening standard structure NV 1st & 2nd seats. It works just fine.

[mikeh]

10-12 works well, tho I wouldn't advise doing it vulnerable.

However, there are both some issues to consider when implementing it, especially in a std type or 2/1 method and some problems that many users ignore.

The first is how to split your 1N and 2N rebids, when the 1N rebid starts at 13. We used to play 1x then 1N as 13-16 and with 17-19 we'd jump to 2N, and this is an uncomfortable range: 17 is weak for 2N, yet 13-17 for the rebid of 1N is unplayable...responder has to bid over 1N with say a good 8 count, or miss too many games.

The second type of problem is more subtle.

We found that we had a problem with our stronger 1N opening hands: we'd open 1 minor and partner would respond, say, 1♦ or 1♥ and rho would overcall 1M, getting the lead in. Our counterparts would go 1N 3N.

This wasn't frequent, but very expensive especially since in my 10-12 partnerships we were focused on imp play.

More common, tho again not very frequent: you are defending and have shown 8 or 9 hcp and declarer is looking for a missing Queen. He knows you don't have it because you passed as dealer in a 10-12 1N seat..and so on.


I loved playing it when it arose. I once went 1400 at the 2 level to win 1 against our teammates 1430, as one example. But it is important to recognize that, as with all treatments or conventions, there are lots of costs and many of them aren't directly from opening 1N, but, rather, from not opening it.

[GreenMan]

One advantage of mini NT in 1-2 seats is that if it goes Pass-Pass(-Pass) then you know partner is likely under 10 HCP, so you have a bit more information when judging whether to come in.

I play 2-way Stayman over the mini NT, since it's fairly simple, but other schemes work well.

[blackshoe]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-September-30, 16:50, said:

This or a system with 2+ card club and diamond with the balanced ranges split between them.

I have no experience with mini-NT, as I said, but in Romex, if you play mini-NT, 1m opening are "normal" (at least 3, and any 12-18), and a 1NT rebid is 13-16, so you don't need split ranges.

In the Romex "two card" system (where you play Romex Vul at MPs or at anything but favorable at IMPs, and Romex Forcing Club (RFC) non-vul at MPs or at favorable at IMPs) you only play mini-NT when playing RFC, and again the 1NT rebid is 13-16.

In both cases responder has two way checkback (2♣ is invitational, 2♦ is GF) available, and opener's rebids over 2♣ will clarify both his strength and his distribution.

[awm]

I've played a lot of 10-12 NV and haven't been that impressed with the results. Mostly this is in the context of a strong club or diamond system, so I don't have the issues of dividing up the ranges that Mikeh describes. However there are still a lot of problems:

1. While we sometimes buy the auction by opening 1NT, we also lose a lot of auctions when opponents overcall 2M and we can't bid over it. Penalty doubles don't come up often when opener can be as light as 10-12, but playing takeout doubles you can get into a lot of trouble if 1NT opener is expected to balance when shape-appropriate (much more so than when opener has a stronger range).
2. If good opponents buy the contract, they are going to play nearly double dummy after the 10-12 opening. They will also play better after our pass.
3. Opening the stronger balanced hands with a cheaper bid is sometimes problematic. The one I've struggled with in particular is the hand with a five-card major and 14+ to 15 hcp. This is a better hand than the vast majority of our 1M openings (strong club remember, range is like 9+ to 15) and sometimes partner's single raise or 1NT response leaves me poorly placed. Upgrading to a strong club leaves me overboard. If I had opened a simple strong notrump on this hand there would be no issues. Similarly after a nebulous 1m, partner is not really going to play me for a dead-max 15 and I may need to back into some auctions where I'd prefer not to.
4. My RHO sometimes gets into the auction with a lead director over my strong notrump when he'd be forced to pass or make a riskier bid if I opened 1NT strong.
5. There is the chance of going for a number, usually -300, opposite no game.

Against weak opponents, the 10-12 is extremely effective because they often don't know how/when to get in and when to stay out, and they don't take full advantage of the negative inferences of "no 10-12 opening" in the play. But in stronger fields I'd rather stick to my strong notrumps (14-16 usually in a strong club context).

[CamHenry]

awm's point that the mini-NT performs better against weak opponents makes sense to me. I don't often play against particularly good pairs, so I can't speak from personal experience, but from being towards the top of a weak field:
- The 10-12 (or 9-11) is disastrous when vulnerable
- The inference that partner is weak when you're opening in 3rd means you can play a 9-15 NT in third seat, with natural takeout responses, and put a lot of pressure on 4th hand. This is like Cyberyeti's 10-15 NT, but without the difficulty of having to find constructive auctions.
- We play the mini in a strong minor system, so there's no risk of having to untangle our constructive 1NT rebids.
- I once had one oppo say to her partner "I'm sorry, they blinded me with science" - having passed out a mini-NT with an 18-count and missed the 3NT game.

[mrdct]

I've been playing a mini-NT for almost 3 years years and find it very effective. My range is 8-10 (which is quite high frequency) and I only play it 1st/2nd fav and 1st nil. You wind up with opponents missing game quite often because they usually lower the values for a penalty double and often just can't quite work out where they need to be due to the one-level being taken away. It's extremely rare to be caught for a penalty and more often than not when the opps decide to defend, it turns out to be a good save or no great disaster (-300 vs a making partscore I can cope with every once in a while). Do check your local regs though as the 8-10 range may not be legal in all places, but it's fine in Australia and in WBF events.

[gwnn]

Great post by awm. You can do it with a strong club with 10-12 in NV 1/2 (maybe also 3rd favourable but I don't like it) and 13-15 (or even 14-16) when V or 3/4. I don't think it works well in a standard system except maybe when you're favourable.

[Cyberyeti]

blackshoe, on 2013-September-30, 21:17, said:

I have no experience with mini-NT, as I said, but in Romex, if you play mini-NT, 1m opening are "normal" (at least 3, and any 12-18), and a 1NT rebid is 13-16, so you don't need split ranges.

In the Romex "two card" system (where you play Romex Vul at MPs or at anything but favorable at IMPs, and Romex Forcing Club (RFC) non-vul at MPs or at favorable at IMPs) you only play mini-NT when playing RFC, and again the 1NT rebid is 13-16.

In both cases responder has two way checkback (2♣ is invitational, 2♦ is GF) available, and opener's rebids over 2♣ will clarify both his strength and his distribution.

This is fair comment, Mexican 2♦ would also solve this problem.

[nigel_k]

A simpler way is to open 1NT with 10-13 and rebid 1NT with 14-17. The four point range isn't ideal but I like it better than opening 1♦ on a doubleton or having a five point 1NT range somewhere.

[mrdct]

In my structure, which includes a short club opening with transfers, when I'm in the mini position (1st/2nd fav or 1st nil) with 11-14 balanced I open 1♣ and accept the transfer, rebid 1NT with 15-17 balanced and in the event that it goes 1♣:1♠ (no major) I use 2♦ as an artificial 15-17 balanced and have a structure to sort it out from there.

[ArtK78]

The comment was made that 10-12 1NT openings work well against weak opponents.

Anything works well against weak opponents, so that comment really doesn't add anything.

I have found, with many years of experience using the 10-12 1NT opening, that it works well against strong opponents.

Sure, there are problems that you don't face with a strong NT opening. But that is true in any system where you play something different. There are problems with opening a strong club, there are problems with using Multi, and so on. I find that the benefits far outweigh the problems.

[mcphee]

I am not so sure that "many" partnerships now employ mini NT. I believe meckwell tried it and dumped it. I know some pairs who do use it with success. My time with it was no blessing scoring 65% or 45 % depending on how the wind blew.