[plum_tree]

These are extracts from the booklet:

RESPONSES AND LATER BIDDING AFTER A 1H OR A 1S OPENING:
1H — 2H = three-card or longer heart support; 6–10 dummy points.
1H — 3H = limit raise (10–11 dummy points with three or more hearts).
(10 HCP is possible for both responses?)

Some questions:
1. How does opener know when responder has three-card support and when responder has four-card support?
2. How does opener enquire about a possible 10 count after 1M-2M?

[EricK]

plum_tree, on 2013-June-25, 23:50, said:

These are extracts from the booklet:

RESPONSES AND LATER BIDDING AFTER A 1H OR A 1S OPENING:
1H — 2H = three-card or longer heart support; 6–10 dummy points.
1H — 3H = limit raise (10–11 dummy points with three or more hearts).
(10 HCP is possible for both responses?)

Some questions:
1. How does opener know when responder has three-card support and when responder has four-card support?
2. How does opener enquire about a possible 10 count after 1M-2M?

1. He generally doesn't. Although in the case of the first sequence, responder might voluntarily bid to 3 later in the auction if there is competition, thus strongly hinting at a 4th ♥
2. He makes a trial bid in another suit asking partner to evaluate his hand further. Partner will generally bid game with a maximum or a good fitting hand which isn't maximum.

[plum_tree]

I think I have figured this thing out. Here is another extract from the booklet:
1♥ and 1♠ openings show a five-card or longer suit.
Responses:
1♥ — 4♥ = usually five+ hearts, a singleton or void, and fewer than 10 HCP

Therefore:
1♥ - 2♥ = usually three-card support
1♥ - 3♥ = usually four-card support
1♥ - 4♥ = usually five-card support

That should work?

[blackshoe]

I think you need to include some point ranges in there. There's a big difference between 5 trumps and only a few points, 5 trumps, no shortage, and around 9-12 points, and 5 trumps and an opening hand (or better), for example.

[Vampyr]

plum_tree, on 2013-June-27, 04:07, said:

Therefore:
1♥ - 2♥ = usually three-card support
1♥ - 3♥ = usually four-card support
1♥ - 4♥ = usually five-card support

That should work?

No, it won't work. Hand strength is very important here. A hand with three cards in support may be game-forcing, and if the player bids 2♥ this may well be the final concert. Similarly, and hand with 5-card support may be strong enough to investigate slam.

Various methods have been devised to allow the partnership to evaluate the length of their fit. Bergen raises is one, and playing a 2NT response as invitational or better with 4+ cards is another. Players who play a forcing 1NT response put some of their raises through that bid. Drury is often used for passed hands. It shouldn't be hard to find information on these methods.

I don't know to what level a 2/1 bid is forcing in Standard American; the Acol approach is to show an invitational hand with 3-card support by bidding 2/1 (or 1♠over 1♥) and then jumping to 3 of the major (if available) or raising to the three-level. I don't know if this is available in Standard American.

I would advise living with the ambiguity at present. It is best to add conventions when you are sure that your present methods are not handling certain hand-types well, and have learnt the value of what you are giving up. Also certain systems may be more suited than others to your style and philosophy, and experience will help determine this as well.

Edit: crossed blackshoe's post.

[plum_tree]

blackshoe, on 2013-June-27, 04:23, said:

I think you need to include some point ranges in there. There's a big difference between 5 trumps and only a few points, 5 trumps, no shortage, and around 9-12 points, and 5 trumps and an opening hand (or better), for example.

A new puzzle
Back to the SAYC booklet
Hopefully I will find some clues there

[blackshoe]

Vampyr, on 2013-June-27, 04:28, said:

I don't know to what level a 2/1 bid is forcing in Standard American; the Acol approach is to show an invitational hand with 3-card support by bidding 2/1 (or 1♠over 1♥) and then jumping to 3 of the major (if available) or raising to the three-level. I don't know if this is available in Standard American.

AFAIK, in SA a 2/1 is forcing to 2NT or 3 of the major; you show the invitational hand with 3 card support the same way as in Acol, although I think some people play 1NT Forcing (for one round) even though they don't play its companion 2/1 Game Forcing bid. In that case one would bid 1NT and then jump to 3M with an invitational hand with three card support. OTOH, I learned Acol in 1990 or so and played it for three years. I didn't learn modern (5 card majors) SA until 1996 or so. Back in the day (early to mid 60s) I played Goren and Schenken Club.

[plum_tree]

The puzzle:

blackshoe, on 2013-June-27, 04:23, said:

I think you need to include some point ranges in there. There's a big difference between 5 trumps and only a few points, 5 trumps, no shortage, and around 9-12 points, and 5 trumps and an opening hand (or better), for example.

When do we reply (or how do we reply)?
1. 2H,
2. 3H, and
3. 4H

This is what SAYC says:
RESPONSES AND LATER BIDDING AFTER A 1H OR A 1S OPENING
1H and 1S openings show a five-card or longer suit. Responses:
1H — 2H = three-card or longer heart support; 6–10 dummy points.
1H — 3H = limit raise (10–11 dummy points with three or more hearts).
1H — 4H = usually five+ hearts, a singleton or void, and fewer than 10 HCP.

Essentially the question in the OP has not yet been answered i.e. how to differentiate between –
1. 10-11 dummy points with three-card support, and
2. 10-11 dummy points with four-card support

I could only find two clues in the SAYC booklet to assist with an answer –

Clue 1:
1H (or 1S) — 1NT = 6–9 points, denies four spades or three hearts. NOT forcing.

Clue 2:
1H — 2C, 2D = 10 points or more, promises at least four of the suit.
Clue 1 says a response of 1NT is NOT FORCING. Although clue 2 does not say it, 2C and 2D MUST BE FORCING? Can I not use this FORCING BID as follows to answer the OP?

Auction 1:
1H — 3H = limit raise (10–11 dummy points with more than three hearts i.e. four hearts)

Auction 2:
1H — 2C, 2D = 10 points or more, FORCING BID not denying heart support
2? — 3H = limit raise (10–11 dummy points with exactly three hearts)
(In auction 2, over anything that opener rebids, responder raises to three of the suit opened. Logic tells me that if opener knows whether I have three-card support or four-card support will make a difference in settling for the part score or bidding game).

Auction 3:
1H — 2H = three-card or longer heart support; 6–109 dummy points. NOT forcing.
(In auction 3, I am applying the same limitations as to a 1NT response i.e. 6–9 points, NOT forcing).

Auction 4:
1H — 4H = usually five+ hearts, a singleton or void, and fewer than 10 HCP.
(In auction 4, no adjustment is made to what SAYC says).

I got SAYC in my profile on BBO. That’s what I’m learning. If I bid like this with a random pickup partner will it be accepted or do they keep fleeing after two boards?

[hrothgar]

The big problem with your approach is the that its easy to give general guidelines, however, the devil is in the details.

You might do better posting a set of hands that you think are appropriate for a 3♠ response to a 1♠ opening playing SAYC and see whether folks agree with your judgement. (You'll probably find a fair number of examples where folks will prefer a variety of different responses)

[Stephen Tu]

blackshoe, on 2013-June-27, 11:29, said:

AFAIK, in SA a 2/1 is forcing to 2NT or 3 of the major;

This depends on agreements, and has varied with time. If you look at very old Bridge Worlds, hardly anything is forcing unless someone jumps, the 2/1 is F1 only. But as time goes on more and more sequences are treated as forcing. In SAYC, the 2/1 promises a rebid, so everything by opener 2nd round is F1 after responder makes a 2/1. Responder, if opener hasn't shown extras by reversing, can then bid a NF 2nt, NF rebid of his 2/1 suit, or a NF preference/raise non-jump raise of one of opener's suits.

Quote

you show the invitational hand with 3 card support the same way as in Acol,

Not quite, I take it Acol has 1s-2c-2d-3s as NF invitational, while in SA the jump would make it forcing. In SA generally you 2/1 then preference to partner's first suit, or raise it to 3 if he rebid it. In SA-YC specifically, you also can jump raise immediately, which doesn't promise 4 according to the booklet. (Some people think it's *mandatory*, not merely an option, to jump raise with 3-cd invitational, but I don't see anything in the booklet to support that claim, and this would contradict most SA texts).

[Stephen Tu]

plum_tree, on 2013-June-27, 13:13, said:

When do we reply (or how do we reply)?
1. 2H,
2. 3H, and
3. 4H

1. 2H = 6-9/bad 10 support points, 3 or more hearts. If one had 5 hearts this would typically be a blah 5332 hand, with a stiff you'd bid 4.
2. 3H = invitational, stronger than 2H, not enough to GF
3. 4H = 5+ with singleton/void, not so strong that you fear missing slam if partner is maximum, so avoid with 10+ HCP or multiple aces.

Quote

Essentially the question in the OP has not yet been answered i.e. how to differentiate between –
1. 10-11 dummy points with three-card support, and
2. 10-11 dummy points with four-card support

No, blackshoe answered it in his first post. In SAYC, you cannot differentiate between these hands. In order to do this generally one needs to add additional gadgets, like a 1nt forcing response. Or one can adopt a policy of only jump raising with 4, and going through a 2/1 with 3, although this wouldn't be strictly SAYC anymore, since SAYC allows 3-cd limit direct jump raises. Also always 2/1 with 3 cd support isn't quite as good as having a 1ntf response available, since then you don't have option of letting suit quality/distribution influence your choice of going through 1nt or showing a suit.

Quote

1H — 2C, 2D = 10 points or more, FORCING BID not denying heart support
2? — 3H = limit raise (10–11 dummy points with exactly three hearts)
(In auction 2, over anything that opener rebids, responder raises to three of the suit opened. Logic tells me that if opener knows whether I have three-card support or four-card support will make a difference in settling for the part score or bidding game).

1h-2c-2d-3h is going to be a gf hand, not invitational. 1h-2c-2h-3h can be the invitational hand.

Quote

I got SAYC in my profile on BBO. That's what I'm learning. If I bid like this with a random pickup partner will it be accepted or do they keep fleeing after two boards?

Who knows, random people stop after two boards for all kinds of reasons, don't assume it's because you bid weirdly. Maybe they lost connection, maybe they had somewhere to be, maybe a regular partner showed up, unless they say in chat, you really don't know. It's a bit rude to leave abruptly without explanation but sometimes people are rude, and sometimes with lost connection they simply couldn't say anything. Sometimes you bid totally normally and they think it's weird because they themselves learned something silly.

Try relaxed bridge section and/or join BIL, might get less fleeing.

And certainly get some other sources for learning besides SAYC booklet! You cannot learn how to bid from this booklet, as I stated in a different thread. The booklet wasn't designed for people learning how to bid, don't try to use it for that purpose! The booklet was for experienced players learning what gadgets are specified for use in a "everyone plays same system" event, not for beginners/novices to learn SA!

[0 fl]

I think that for most people, we don't really thin about these things. We develop a feeling for when to go to 3H and when just to stay at 2H.

[plum_tree]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-June-27, 15:25, said:

And certainly get some other sources for learning besides SAYC booklet! You cannot learn how to bid from this booklet, as I stated in a different thread. The booklet wasn't designed for people learning how to bid, don't try to use it for that purpose! The booklet was for experienced players learning what gadgets are specified for use in a "everyone plays same system" event, not for beginners/novices to learn SA!

SAYC is all I could find on the ACBL website. Also this is what I was given. I tried to Google Standard American (not the Yellow Card) and found a number of links. But the writeups differ as to what Standard American really is. If you can provide a link to the "official" Standard American it will be appreciated, preferably the "official" version sanctioned by the ACBL. If I got the "official" version then at least I start from an approved base (the ACBL). SAYC is "official." The ACBL keeps a copy on their website and gets revised by them.

[Stephen Tu]

plum_tree, on 2013-June-27, 22:53, said:

SAYC is all I could find on the ACBL website. Also this is what I was given. I tried to Google Standard American (not the Yellow Card) and found a number of links. But the writeups differ as to what Standard American really is. If you can provide a link to the "official" Standard American it will be appreciated, preferably the "official" version sanctioned by the ACBL. If I got the "official" version then at least I start from an approved base (the ACBL). SAYC is "official." The ACBL keeps a copy on their website and gets revised by them.

There is no "official" Standard American, the ACBL never really attempted to create/sanction an official SA, unlike the Brits with their "standard English" or Poles with their WJ2005. SA is an umbrella term for a general style of bidding, descended mainly from the Goren methods/books, that has evolved over time, and it has never been a real "std", just what is current consensus for certain sequences, if there is a consensus (in many areas it's a guess without discussion, in some areas consensus has emerged, and what was consensus 30-40 years ago isn't necessarily consensus today). It was once four-card majors, now five-card major is std. It was once 16-18 1nt opener, now 15-17 is standard. Jump raises of majors used to be considered forcing, now invitational is considered standard. 2nd round jumps by responder (1c-1h-1s-3s, 1c-1h-1s-2nt) used to be forcing, now most play them as invitational.

The closest you can get to "official" is maybe the ACBL's club series beginner bidding book:
http://www.amazon.co..._pr_product_top
But it's targeted to beginners, isn't going to be comprehensive, might be OK as a first book. (But I prefer Bill Root).

If you get several books, you can more or less piece together which sequences are universal, and which most certainly aren't. In SA, although there are things that can be definitely considered "modern standard", like 15-17 1nt and limit major raises, there are still some areas where assumption is very dangerous. These are things where if your only agreement is "SA" it's a tossup what your new partner will expect, and if the agreement is "SAYC" it's supposed to be one thing according to the booklet, but in reality a large portion of the people have never really carefully studied the booklet and will often get it wrong. Like:
1. is 1m-2nt forcing or invitational (SAYC specifies forcing, but often pickups will pass)
2. to what extent is a 2/1 forcing. Is 1M-2m-2nt forcing? Does it show extra values? (SAYC says 2nt is forcing, since 2/1 promises a rebid, but again pickups will pass)
3. What is 1M-2nt. SAYC specifies this as Jacoby 2nt, a forcing major raise. But some don't know that J2nt is part of SAYC. They might play it as forcing natural. Or, more rarely, maybe even non-forcing invitational natural
4. Is a jump-shift strong or weak (1c-2s)? (SAYC specifies strong)
5. What is 1nt-2s. SAYC specifies minor signoff, but how many people really know that? Minor signoff is a pretty rare treatment among better players anyway, most play 4-way transfers or minor-suit stayman variants.
6. What are double jump shifts, like 1s-4c, 1c-3s? Most better players would tend to assume splinter, but SAYC doesn't include splinters, and is silent on these sequence's strength if natural. Perhaps they are meant to be weak, natural (most common before splinters came in vogue) in SAYC, but who knows? I'd avoid these sequences.
7. Is 1m-3m forcing or invitational? If only invitational, how do you make a forcing raise in a minor? (SAYC has no forcing raise)
8. To what levels are negative doubles played? Are responsive doubles assumed or do you assume penalty?
9. Is 4h-dbl, 4s-dbl takeout, "optional", or penalty? Is (4s)-4nt a two-suit takeout or three-suit takeout? (Assumptions may differ depending on level, age of player, when they learned bridge).


But you can't learn how to bid well solely from the SAYC pamphlet. There simply isn't enough meat there, without having a lot of prior bridge knowledge. Not enough sequences covered, not enough examples given. That's why these whole books on bidding exist. Bridge is a complex game. Mike Lawrence has a book of over 300 pages, dealing almost exclusively with bidding just after takeout doubles! While you think you are going to learn to play SA well from an 8 page summary pamphlet??

[Zelandakh]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-June-27, 15:10, said:

Not quite, I take it Acol has 1s-2c-2d-3s as NF invitational, while in SA the jump would make it forcing.

It depends on the version of Acol in play. Many play a 3♠ rebid as a GF here.

[blackshoe]

Stephen Tu, on 2013-June-28, 00:45, said:

If you get several books, you can more or less piece together which sequences are universal, and which most certainly aren't.

I find Alan Truscott's The Bidding Dictionary invaluable for this kind of thing, but it's a reference, not a textbook.

[shnk]

plum_tree, on 2013-June-25, 23:50, said:

2. How does opener enquire about a possible 10 count after 1M-2M?

The simplest way is to have the raise to 3M show 16-17 or so and responder will go to game with a max.
More precise is to use "game tries". A reasonable game try scheme is to play that a new suit after 1M-2M shows a 3+ card suit with one top honor and an interest in game if there is a secondary fit. There are lots of different game try agreements; this is something you should discuss with a partner.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2013-June-28, 02:01, said:

It depends on the version of Acol in play. Many play a 3♠ rebid as a GF here.

It is often a challenge to determine which changes are major enough that the system cannot truthfully be called "Acol" anymore. I think that this is one of them.