[Zelandakh]

plum_tree, on 2013-May-31, 01:24, said:

What's Baron?

I missed this. Baron is thename given to a range of different conventions that involve the players bidding 4 card suits "up the line" to locate a fit. The particular form being decsribed here (1NT - 2♠) is often described as a Baron range ask, since the primary job of the bid is to ask Opener if they are minimum or maximum and the location of 4-4 fits happens only on a rare hand type (slam interest with one or both 4 card minors).

Vampyr, on 2013-May-31, 04:53, said:

So you can do loads of stuff; the tradeoff is, of course, which hand-types you can't show. With 4-suit transfers the hand-type you lose is the minor-suit slam type where responder doesn't have 6 or more cards.

As I was describing earlier, it depends on how you implement the 4 suit transfers. If you show the 2-suiters this way then the hand type you lose is the 1-suiter, which is simple to get back by way of a 3m response. So:

2♠ = 2NT invite or clubs
... - 2NT = min
... - ... - 3♣ = to play
... - ... - 3♦ = 5+ clubs, 4 hearts
... - ... - 3♥ = 5+ clubs, 4 spades
... - ... - 3♠ = 5+ clubs, 5+ diamonds
... - 3♣ = max
... - ... - 3♦ = 5+ clubs, 4 hearts
... - ... - 3♥ = 5+ clubs, 4 spades
... - ... - 3♠ = 5+ clubs, 5+ diamonds
2NT = diamonds
... - 3♣ = bad hand for diamonds
... - ... - 3♦ = to play
... - ... - 3♥ = 5+ diamonds, 4 spades
... - ... - 3♠ = 5+ diamonds, 4 hearts
... - 3♦ = good hand for diamonds
... - ... - 3♥ = 5+ diamonds, 4 spades
... - ... - 3♠ = 5+ diamonds, 4 hearts
3♣ = 6+ clubs, slammy
3♦ = 6+ diamonds, slammy

is a module that can handle these hands, more or less. Most systems will also have additional space over their 2♣ response to support the hand types further. My preference is to use that additional space in 2♣ to handle the hands contained in 2NT (diamond transfer) and then to regain the immediate 2NT response for something else. But that is not really 4 suit transfers any more.

[Vampyr]

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-31, 05:18, said:

is a module that can handle these hands, more or less.

You do miss the club-fit showing rebid. I find that these are pretty reasonable frequency; I don't know whether this is partly due to the fact that I play weak NT.

[plum_tree]

Vampyr, on 2013-May-31, 04:53, said:

Baron is a method in which after 1NT - 2♠, opener bids 2NT with a minimum and his lowest 4-card suit with a maximum. 4-4 fits in minors can be found this way, and obviously invitational balanced raises are bid this way.

Zelandakh, on 2013-May-31, 05:18, said:

I missed this. Baron is the name given to a range of different conventions that involve the players bidding 4 card suits "up the line" to locate a fit. The particular form being decsribed here (1NT - 2♠) is often described as a Baron range ask, since the primary job of the bid is to ask Opener if they are minimum or maximum and the location of 4-4 fits happens only on a rare hand type (slam interest with one or both 4 card minors).

I haven't got this Baron thingy yet.
What I am reading here is this: 1NT-2♠
1. Effectively I have denied a 4-card major (isn't that leaking info to the opponents if you declare in 2NT or 3NT?)
2. Responder has a minimum balanced holding with 4/4 in the minors
3. Now I am trying to establish opener's hand strength. With a minimum opener rebids 2NT which is going to be passed. The opponents have been tipped off the dummy does not have a 4-card major which may assist them in defending 2NT?
4. The 2♠ bid guarantees 4/4 in the minors? With a maximum, opener starts bidding 4-card suits up the line. Only rarely does this end up in a slam try? More often than not the contract ends in 3NT implying that responder has a dead 8 HCP count but no 4-card major?
5. Baron appears to me to be a variation of Minor Suit Stayman.

Help!!!

[campboy]

No, it's not really a version of minor-suit stayman.

1NT - 2♠ is normally a balanced invitation without a 4-card major (the same hands which would bid 1NT - 2NT in natural methods), but could also be a much stronger hand looking for slam.

Opener replies 2NT with a hand that would not accept an invitation. So after the auction 1NT - 2♠ - 2NT - pass, opponents have exactly the same information about your hands as after a natural 1NT - 2NT - pass, except that they have had the opportunity to double 2♠ for the lead.

If opener wants to accept the invitation he will bid a 4-card minor (if he has one) in case responder has the strong option. This does give extra information away on hands that would bid 1NT - 2NT - 3NT playing natural methods.

I wouldn't play this, personally, as it loses out on common hands for a gain on rare hands.

[Zelandakh]

Campboy's write-up is spot on. It is quite reasonable if you just want a simple solution to using the 2♠ bid as a "transfer" and getting some extra value from it. However, there are better solutions. For example, you can delay the Baron ask until after a Stayman response:

1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♠ = Baron range ask
1NT - 2♣; 2♥ - 2♠ = Baron range ask
1NT - 2♣; 2♠ - 3♦ = Baron for the minors only (3♥ = clubs; 3♠ = diamonds)

If you happen to be playing Puppet, then something simlar is:
1NT - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥ = asks if 4 spades held, then Responder's 3m next round is Baron

Also, a variation I used to play a long time ago over a 2NT opening is Skip Baron, where a 3♣ response asks Opener to bid their lowest 4 card suit and rebids by Responder show the lowest suit where they do not hold 4 cards. The Skip Baron method is a useful addition to the Baron idea in situations where one hand is much stronger than the other.

[plum_tree]

I’ve been playing off the 2006 SAYC Booklet. Over 1NT this booklet plays –
2♠ = Transfer to 3♣ which is either passed with ♣ or converted to 3♦ which must be passed.
1NT-2NT = Natural and invitational to 3NT
1NT-3♣ or 3♦ = 6-card or longer suit, invitational to 3NT.

According to this booklet minor suit slam tries go through Stayman i.e.
1NT-2♣-2 any-3m
3m promises a minimum of 5-cards in the suit bid. Therefore playing SAYC I don’t need Baron. Having said that Minor Suit Stayman is possibly an improvement on 2♠ as a transfer to 3♣. I can still transfer by using 2NT as a transfer to 3♣ as pass or correct to 3♦. The invitational hands can also go through Stayman i.e. 1NT-2♣-2 any-2NT

What I can ascertain from what has been posted here so far is this:
Using 2♠ as a transfer to 3♣, I lose Minor Suit Stayman/Baron. I cannot have all 3 so my choice on which one to retain will depend on frequency of occurrence. Can anyone help with these frequencies?
1. Occurrence of a 6-card or longer ♣ suit 0-7 HCP? This for the transfer option?
2. Occurrence of a 5/4 or better holding in the minor suits? This for Minor Suit Stayman?
3. Occurrence of a 4/4 or better holding in the minor suits and 8 HCP? This for Baron?

Where are the Americans? Seems like this SAYC Booklet of yours did a fairly decent job on continuations over 1NT? What are your experiences with it?

[Vampyr]

plum_tree, on 2013-June-03, 06:46, said:

2♠ = Transfer to 3♣ which is either passed with ♣ or converted to 3♦ which must be passed.

Do not forget that with this method there is the possibility of responder rebidding 3 of a major or 3NT, so certain good minor-suit hands can be assigned to these bids, and of course you still have the 3-level jumps available. If you really want Baron, you could for example use 1NT - 2♠ - 3♣ - 3NT as Baron, as long as you use it on hands on which 4NT should be safe, which it should if you are not terribly unbalanced and are interested in a slam.

[Fluffy]

Most people on my country play this over 1NT:

2♣ stayman, promises a 4 card major
2♦ transfer to hearts
2♥ transfer to spades
2♠ transfer to clubs
2NT natural
3♣ transfer to diamonds


I am very happy with it, and I recomend it for beginners over 4 way transfers.

[TylerE]

Why Fluffy? That really gains none of the benefits of 4 way transfers - the whole point is to be able to pre/super accept. If you can't dot hat, why bother?

[mycroft]

A lot of the benefits of 4-way transfers is to have the strong hand play the minor bailout and to have an unambiguous "slam push". The "if you have a fitter, 3NT should be on" hand, while very nice when it comes up, is at least second in line (and causes a problem when we have a gap call ("fitter" or "no fitter") and partner really did just want to bail in 3m).

That, and the fact that it is actually nice to have a sequence that says "bid 3NT with support" is all we need for N/B. Really old-fashioned:

2♣: Stayman
2red: transfers
2♠: "bail in a minor"
2NT: NAT, INV
3m: INV
3M: Suit-set-slam-try

works for 95% of the cases (I'll give up on the 6m but not 6NT hands for now; once N/B get the judgement to know that this might be one of those, they're far enough along to do some tweaking). Not totally serious comment follows:

Spoiler

Or you could play 4m as SSST; at least that would stop N/B misusing Gerber!

However, past N/B:

Spoiler

I've played a direct 3m as "bid 3NT with a fitter", and no superaccepts even with 2♠ = clubs, 3♣ = diamonds. I currently play Keri with one partner; there's no need for superaccepts (and we don't have them) in the minors, because 2NT=clubs, weak or strong, 2♣ could be diamonds weak, or either minor INV (go with a fitter). And it frees up 2♠ for the "balanced INV", and because it's already there, we can overload it with our suit-set-slam-tries.

[Cyberyeti]

mycroft, on 2013-June-04, 10:57, said:

A lot of the benefits of 4-way transfers is to have the strong hand play the minor bailout and to have an unambiguous "slam push". The "if you have a fitter, 3NT should be on" hand, while very nice when it comes up, is at least second in line (and causes a problem when we have a gap call ("fitter" or "no fitter") and partner really did just want to bail in 3m).

That, and the fact that it is actually nice to have a sequence that says "bid 3NT with support" is all we need for N/B. Really old-fashioned:

2♣: Stayman
2red: transfers
2♠: "bail in a minor"
2NT: NAT, INV
3m: INV
3M: Suit-set-slam-try

works for 95% of the cases (I'll give up on the 6m but not 6NT hands for now; once N/B get the judgement to know that this might be one of those, they're far enough along to do some tweaking). Not totally serious comment follows:

Spoiler

Or you could play 4m as SSST; at least that would stop N/B misusing Gerber!

However, past N/B:

Spoiler

I've played a direct 3m as "bid 3NT with a fitter", and no superaccepts even with 2♠ = clubs, 3♣ = diamonds. I currently play Keri with one partner; there's no need for superaccepts (and we don't have them) in the minors, because 2NT=clubs, weak or strong, 2♣ could be diamonds weak, or either minor INV (go with a fitter). And it frees up 2♠ for the "balanced INV", and because it's already there, we can overload it with our suit-set-slam-tries.

It's also very easy to organise 2♠ as bail in a minor or GF with both minors (or indeed other GF hands if you prefer that you can show with 3M/3N rebids).

[Fluffy]

TylerE, on 2013-June-04, 08:30, said:

Why Fluffy? That really gains none of the benefits of 4 way transfers - the whole point is to be able to pre/super accept. If you can't dot hat, why bother?

it is simple and it allows for invitational 2NT. Perfect for beginners.