[benlessard]

so with

Ax
QT98xxx
x
Kxx

You pass or its a clear 1H opener for you ?

I play a strong club and could afford to open with lower requirement than standard bidder, yet I dont see the point of opening 1H instead of 2H. I dont see how its possible to get a bad board by opening 2H here (unless 2S making and 2H going down or a super rare 2Hx).. If i open 1H I can see plenty of way to get get a 1S or 2m overcall and get +100/+300 instead of +620.

[Vampyr]

rhm, on 2013-April-12, 11:24, said:

Admittedly it is not that unusual. I just like to know such things

What I do when I want to know is ask about their preempting style. Wouldn't adopting this practice solve your problem?

[gnasher]

benlessard, on 2013-April-12, 16:54, said:

so with

Ax
QT98xxx
x
Kxx

You pass or its a clear 1H opener for you ?

I play a strong club and could afford to open with lower requirement than standard bidder, yet I dont see the point of opening 1H instead of 2H. I dont see how its possible to get a bad board by opening 2H here (unless 2S making and 2H going down or a super rare 2Hx).. If i open 1H I can see plenty of way to get get a 1S or 2m overcall and get +100/+300 instead of +620.

It's a 1♥ opening. The point of opening 1♥ is to get to the right contract, both on this hand and on the occasions when I'm dealt xx KQJxxx xx xxx.

[rhm]

gnasher, on 2013-April-13, 02:05, said:

It's a 1♥ opening. The point of opening 1♥ is to get to the right contract, both on this hand and on the occasions when I'm dealt xx KQJxxx xx xxx.

It may be a 1♥ opening for you, but I have slightly higher requirements, particularly when partner needs to take an immediate decision whether to force to game and I consider myself a light opener. But there are limits.
What about ♠Ax,♥JT9xxxx,♦x,♣Kxx ?
The most likely outcome is when you open such hands with 2♥ is that you get to game quickly when partner fits heart and stop when he doesn't at a safe level.
Even if partner raises you with a strong hand and a singleton honor you are protected by your additional heart.
The fear that partner will over-compete, in particular when you are red, is exaggerated. But of course it could work out poorly. Any bid can. For example partner might lead the suit. However, he likely would do so as well when you open with 1♥ instead.

What you essentially do is to make your preempts more precise at the cost of making your one level bids more wide ranging.
Do not tell me you do not pay a price for that. You know you do.
If your partner has opening strength, but does not fit hearts - not an unlikely occurrence - you will get too high.
It is a tradeoff.
But what I find hard to grasp is that some, who will argue that light one level openings create more problems for opponents than partner, do not see this, when it comes to preempts and also often have extreme requirements for opening 2♣ as well.
In essence some open almost everything with a one level bid and fool themselves that there is no price to be paid for this philosophy.
I have a different view and as I said I do not like to pass with a long major if there is any alternative. Timing is as important in the bidding as in the play of the hand.

Rainer Herrmann

[JLOGIC]

JT98 was the only holding that made sense to me at all. Not that 2H is wonderful but I can see it being more appealing than 3H, 1H, and pass which all seem very flawed. I would open 2H with JT98 since it gets my playing strength for hearts across 2nd seat r/w, and having extra defense is not really that bad (usually the downside of too much defense is partner mis-evaluates in save situations, but red/white I don't expect partner to be saving. If he bids 5H to make or as a 2 way shot, I certainly have a good hand [my hand increases with a fit obv] so I won't be upset.)

[benlessard]

JLOGIC, on 2013-April-13, 08:32, said:

JT98 was the only holding that made sense to me at all. Not that 2H is wonderful but I can see it being more appealing than 3H, 1H, and pass which all seem very flawed. I would open 2H with JT98 since it gets my playing strength for hearts across 2nd seat r/w, and having extra defense is not really that bad (usually the downside of too much defense is partner mis-evaluates in save situations, but red/white I don't expect partner to be saving. If he bids 5H to make or as a 2 way shot, I certainly have a good hand [my hand increases with a fit obv] so I won't be upset.)

So with QT98xxx you dont think that opening 2H to block 1S or 2m overcall is worth it ?

Especially at MP where +500 might be a terrible score, its not like you are going to miss slam or game by opening 2H or take a bad 5H save too often.


Also had a hand today where ive opened 2S red vs white at many others tables the bidding went..

1S--(2H)--X--(3H)
3S--(X) for -500 (or pull to 4C for -200)

Hero had KT987xx,x,Kx,KJx . Maybe 3S is too dangerous but most in the same spot bid 3S I think. and maybe they should have pulled to 4C to limit the losses. But my feeling is that those cases are probably more frequent than we think.

[JLOGIC]

Obviously QT98 is similar to JT98, I would probably just open 1 with QT98 but I wouldn't criticize 2, we are just getting into "where you draw the line" territory and nitpicking, the key is that I'm willing to open 2 with the kind of hand type that is worth it on playing strength and has an atypically weak suit but compensating values, and is not strong enough to open 1.

I usually agree with gnasher about purity mattering a lot when it comes to preempting but I think r/w 2nd seat is not about saving and thus purity over playing strength is not a huge priority, especially when the alternative is passing and trying to figure it out later (which might get rough for the exact reason that we are r/w and will be scurrrrrrred).

[rhm]

benlessard, on 2013-April-13, 19:42, said:

Also had a hand today where ive opened 2S red vs white at many others tables the bidding went..

1S--(2H)--X--(3H)
3S--(X) for -500 (or pull to 4C for -200)

Hero had KT987xx,x,Kx,KJx . Maybe 3S is too dangerous but most in the same spot bid 3S I think. and maybe they should have pulled to 4C to limit the losses. But my feeling is that those cases are probably more frequent than we think.

I would probably also have opened 2♠. But this one is very close and in all fairness a tradeoff.
You were lucky and the 1♠ bidders were out of luck. If partner held something like

Axx,xxxx,Qxx,Axx

I would not expect that you (nor I) would have reached game.

Rainer Herrmann

[P_Marlowe]

Most likely I would not do it given the outside values.
The most I can have would be the Queen Ten, the King would already make this a opener.

In first seat it is closer, but I doubt I would do it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

Justin, would you ever open 2H vulnerable with 7 small hearts if you had the right playing strength?

[JLOGIC]

no

[han]

This thread reminded me of a discussion I once had with a former partner of mine. He had opened multi on 7 spades, red in second seat. I had AKQJ of spades and jumped to 6H, he passed.

More than a year later the same partner did it again, but now with hearts. Again I had AKQJ of his suit and again I went wrong (now not competing enough) because it didn't occur to me that he had seven small. I guess this shows that I'm a slow learner.

This story has made me really dislike opening at the two-level in a poor 7-card suit, but that's mostly because here that means opening multi. If you open a weak 2 at least partner will know your suit.

[lalldonn]

I would open 3!H with JT9 or QT9, and in some circumstances wouldn't need the 9. I am a bit shocked to see that so many are apparantly happy to just pass such hands (I suppose some people would open 1!H with the QT).

[lalldonn]

Fwiw I answered on my phone without seeing there was a whole second page of replies which diverged somewhat from the first page.

[JLOGIC]

han, on 2013-April-17, 07:36, said:

This thread reminded me of a discussion I once had with a former partner of mine. He had opened multi on 7 spades, red in second seat. I had AKQJ of spades and jumped to 6H, he passed.

More than a year later the same partner did it again, but now with hearts. Again I had AKQJ of his suit and again I went wrong (now not competing enough) because it didn't occur to me that he had seven small. I guess this shows that I'm a slow learner.

This story has made me really dislike opening at the two-level in a poor 7-card suit, but that's mostly because here that means opening multi. If you open a weak 2 at least partner will know your suit.

Obv you must draw the line somewhere. JT98 is not nearly as bad as 7 small for obvious reasons (much better suit opposite non fit, much harder to double you without the JT98, mitigates downsides of horrible break) etc.

[FrancesHinden]

benlessard, on 2013-April-12, 16:54, said:

so with

Ax
QT98xxx
x
Kxx

You pass or its a clear 1H opener for you ?

I play a strong club and could afford to open with lower requirement than standard bidder, yet I dont see the point of opening 1H instead of 2H. I dont see how its possible to get a bad board by opening 2H here (unless 2S making and 2H going down or a super rare 2Hx).. If i open 1H I can see plenty of way to get get a 1S or 2m overcall and get +100/+300 instead of +620.

Saying you 'don't see the point' is being somewhat obtuse.
Suppose partner has, say, Kxx A Axx AQJ109x. Do you think you have any hope of getting to 7C after a 2H opening? Or to 3NT opposite Kxx x KQJ10xx Axx or 4H opposite Kxx x Axx AJxxxx?

2H clearly has upsides (not getting too high on a misfit, pre-empting opponents) but it's obviously easily possible to get a bad board.

[mycroft]

-2 undoubled is the killer for me. +100 is almost sure to be a poor score. Will partner ever know when to double on your no trump tricks and two outside tricks? As opposed to next time when you have AKJTxx and something to keep them honest?

[dake50]

-2 undoubled is the killer for me. +100 is almost sure to be a poor score. Will partner ever know when to double on your no trump tricks and two outside tricks? As opposed to next time when you have AKJTxx and something to keep them honest? -- mycroft

*** Agree that.
A partnership may have wide-open preempts or well-defined.
You pays your prices when you're wrong.
BUT you must (to be rational) think your gains >/= your losses.
That's *the reasoning* I'd like to see.

[mycroft]

I have no reason to believe I'm right; but a weak two of any stripe (except possibly EHAA weak 2s) is a limited bid that effectively makes partner captain. She knows what to do; you don't - unless you open with this much defence and this weak a suit R/W, in which case she doesn't know either (unless you *always* have this hand and not the AKTxxx-and-a-card). In second seat, you only have a 40% chance of preempting the strong opponent (there's a decent chance that the points are 10-10-10-10 or close to it, so not "50%") and about the same of preempting partner. I agree, you'll probably win in the 10s-across-the-board case, because you'll probably go plus in 2♥ if partner doesn't have the cards to raise. But the rest of the time?