[helene_t]

Free I don't get it. If I need to respond 1♠ to find a spade fit, presumably 2♠ now doesn't show four spades. What does it show then? If 2M now shows a stopper rather than length because we play MAFIA, then mark me down for a 2♥ WTP ( ) bid.

[aguahombre]

PhilKing, on 2013-January-29, 07:12, said:

Some of us, ie those who would not bid 2♠, are afraid of finding a spade fit.

I would be afraid of finding a spade fit, if I were also afraid we couldn't later determine partner's spade quality; or if I were afraid partner wouldn't pay attention to her spade quality later on. Otherwise, no fear.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-January-29, 06:20, said:

2C = 4+♣, 2/1 GF values ; does not deny a 4 card Major.

2D = 1st obligation is to show 5+♦; does not deny a 4 card M .
Now the entire 2-level is still available to find a 4-4 Major fit.
So any 2-level Major bid next shows 4 cards - - NOT just values in the suit .

I'm ready to see Opener's hand .

Bidding 2S now ( showing 4 ) also denies 4 cards ♥... which should be worth something to aid partner's next call if can't bid 3S .

[kenrexford]

For those who did not quite follow the last half of my analysis, there is a different way to understand what I am saying.

After the start 1♦-P-2♣-P-2♦, initial major bids show positive honor values in the major but not necessarily length. "Raises" of positive honor value bids are offers to play that strain, however.

So, consider the actual hand. A-K-x in hearts is clerarly a positive honor value. A "positive honor value" is perhaps another word for a stopper or two, but somehow I think this is somehow different. Responder would clearly bid 2♥ in this approach, because he has a positive honor value in hearts but not one in spades. 2♥ does not technically deny a positive honor value in spades, but it sure sounds like it. So, all is good.

As to length, 2♥ does not show 4-card and does not deny 4-card. Rather, as the focus is at this point on honor strength and not on length, 2♥ tends to imply greater honor strength than that in spades, but nothing is said about respective lengths. Hence, with say xxxx-AQ in the majors (4-2 shape), 2♥ is right.

After an honor strength bid is made, raising that suit to also show honor strength is somewhat redundant, for the obvious reason that the issue is the fourth suit. Hence, Opener's move in bidding, say, 3♥ after [1♦-2♣, 2♦-2♥, 3♥] is to now seek strain, and hence the "raise" should be legitimate about length and ambiguous about honor strength. However, as Responder's first call was honor strength and not length, only Responder can continue this strain discussion. (A bid of the fourth suit NOW wouyld be a GPS cuebid.)

Now, technically Opener might then bid 2♠ (1♦-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠) and that might sound like strain seeking, as the redundancy issue seems equally applicable. However, Opener might need a bolster in that fourth suit. Hence, as 2♠ makes sense as a further probe for this reason, and as the level is so low, and as general agreement consistency is a good thing, I simply default to all major bids being honor bids but raises are strain offers.

The question, then, might be whether there is a solution for when Responder has AKx in spades with xxxx in hearts, as 4♥ might be the ideal contract. The relevant auction would start as follows:

1♦-2♣
2♦-2♠
3♥-?

3♥ is not a strain offer but rather a bolster ask. But, Responder cannot "raise" hearts below 3NT by bidding 3♥. So, he uses the surrogate of 3♠ to offer a heart strain. Hence, you could have this crazy auction:

1♦-2♣
2♦-2♠(spade honor values)
3♥(do you have a heart bolster?)-3♠(I have four hearts)
?

3NT = That's nice as a bolster, I guess
4♥ = Let's play 4♥ then
Other = Cue in support of hearts, slammish

[kriegel]

The full deal was:

Partner:
♠K
♥Qxx
♦AQ109xx
♣Jxx

You:
♠9xxx
♥AK10
♦K
♣AKQxx

Diamonds do not split.

[aguahombre]

So, after the 2S rebid the club strain is found. Unless diamonds not splitting means 5-1 (not the stiff jack?), we like our chances in 6C.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

kriegel, on 2013-January-29, 11:49, said:

The full deal was:

Partner:
♠K
♥Qxx
♦AQ109xx
♣Jxx

You:
♠9xxx
♥AK10
♦K
♣AKQxx

1D - 2C!
2D - 2S
2NT - 3C
3D - 3H
4C! ( Minorwood ) - 4D ( 0/3 )
4H ( ♣ Q-ask ) - 4NT ( yes + ♥K : NT shows asking suit feature )
6C

[the hog]

kriegel, on 2013-January-29, 11:49, said:

The full deal was:

Partner:
♠K
♥Qxx
♦AQ109xx
♣Jxx

You:
♠9xxx
♥AK10
♦K
♣AKQxx

Diamonds do not split.

Who cares about the Ds? I want to be in 6C.

[kriegel]

the hog, on 2013-January-29, 18:12, said:

Who cares about the Ds? I want to be in 6C.

Of course. But it seems to be the only possible piece of relevant information about the East-West hands.

[mike777]

kriegel, on 2013-January-27, 19:52, said:

Vulnerable at IMPs you hold:

♠9xxx
♥AK10
♦K
♣AKQxx

Playing partner's preferred methods, a simple 2/1 with strong notrump, partner opens 1♦ in first seat. You respond 2♣, and partner rebids 2♦. You haven't discussed whether 2♦ denies a 4-card major or whether a reverse would promise extra values. Over to you.

1♦ - 2♣
2♦ - ?

the debate is 2s vs 2nt?

I will try 2nt but 2s has it points.

[rhm]

mike777, on 2013-January-29, 23:59, said:

the debate is 2s vs 2nt?

No. 2NT is only better than 2S. Depending on agreements what the 2♦ shows or denies, I prefer either 2H or 3C to 2NT

Quote

I will try 2nt but 2s has it points.

Which ones? I still try to uncover them.

Rainer Herrmann

[mike777]

rhm, on 2013-January-30, 02:57, said:

No. 2NT is only better than 2S. Depending on agreements what the 2♦ shows ro denies, I prefer either 2H or 3C to 2NT


Which ones? I still try to uncover them.

Rainer Herrmann

if said you think 2h or 3c better than 2s or 2nt ok.....but you dont.

Please no alerts.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-January-29, 12:47, said:

1D - 2C!
2D - 2S
2NT - 3C
3D - 3H
4C! ( Minorwood ) - 4D ( 0/3 )
4H ( ♣ Q-ask ) - 4NT ( yes + ♥K : NT shows asking suit feature )
6C

Is 3♦ natural Don? The way I read this auction, 4♣ is the suit agreement and therefore should not be the ask under your rules. What am I missing?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Zelandakh, on 2013-January-30, 04:46, said:

Is 3♦ natural Don? The way I read this auction, 4♣ is the suit agreement and therefore should not be the ask under your rules. What am I missing?

You are right ... "brainfade" ... 4C would be first suit agreement ( not Minorwood ).
To use 4C as Minorwood, suit agreement would have had to been made at the 3-level .

I don't have a good auction ( I didn't want to agree clubs with only 3 cards ... I prefer 4 ) .

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2013-January-30, 07:05, said:

You are right ... "brainfade" ... 4C would be first suit agreement ( not Minorwood ).
To use 4C as Minorwood, suit agreement would have had to been made at the 3-level .

I don't have a good auction ( I didn't want to agree clubs with only 3 cards ... I prefer 4 ) .

You didn't agree clubs with only 3 cards on the first rebid, because you had a 6-bagger to rebid. But how bad can it be to show the support next time?

1D-2C
2D-2S
3C-3H....now enjoy your Minorwood or exchange control bids or whatever..up to 6C.

Admittedly, that would only apply if we use a natural approach to the early search for strain; so, if you prefer more complex methods you might indeed have more of a problem establishing trumps in time to easily go for slam.

[Zelandakh]

As a 2/1 auction, perhaps we can start

1♦ - 2♣;
2♦ - 2♥;
2NT - 3♣;
3♦ - 3♠;
4♣, and now have South ask?

... - 4♦;
4♥ - 6♣

You would feel silly if North were 2263 though. No doubt, someone who actually plays 2/1 can come up with a much better auction.

My auction is

1♦ = 10-17, 4+ diamonds, unbal
... - 1♥ = INV+ relay
1♠ = min, not 4 spades unless 4441/4450
... - 1NT = GF relay
2♦ = 6+ diamonds, one-suited
... - 2♥ = relay
2♠ = 3 hearts
... - 2NT = relay
3♦ = 3 clubs
... - 3♥ = relay
3♠ = 1363
... - 4♣ = relay
4♦ = 0-2 controls
... - 4♥ = relay
4NT = diamond control, no heart control
... - 6♣

Knowing that North has a spade singleton makes this somewhat safer.

[Zelandakh]

I cross-posted with agua. Don uses 2♣ as natural or balanced if I remember correctly so they have not really been bid here until Responder says 3♣. Playing fred's way, where 2♣ is always a real suit would make this much easier.

[aguahombre]

I am not familiar with Don's method enough to be sure. But it would seem that after a 1D opening, 2C is different than the "natural-or balanced" thing which some use in response to 1M.

However, even if I am wrong about that, certainly after:

1D-2C
2D-2S...responder has established club length (longer than his spades) and it is safe for opener to show the 8-card fit.

[gnasher]

People seem to be making rather heavy weather of this. I don't see any need for anyone to do anything weird like rebidding a 5-card suit, treating a singleton as a stopper, or guessing whether spades are controlled.

1♦-2♣
2♦-2♥
3♣-4♣ (all natural so far)
4♦-4♥ (cue, cue)
4♠-4NT (cue, Keycard)
5♦-6♣

[aguahombre]

gnasher, on 2013-January-30, 11:05, said:

1♦-2♣
2♦-2♥
3♣-4♣ (all natural so far)

Some pairs/jurisdictions define "natural" differently.