[straube]

akhare, on 2013-January-11, 22:20, said:

To me, it seems that your biggest concern is the lack of relays with a big balanced hand opposite a super positive hand.

It's possible to address that concern and keep things simple with a single tweak:

1C - 1D:

.....1H (mostly unbalanced with 4+ hearts, some big balanced hands):
........1S: SP or balanced, asks for hand type
.............1N: Big balanced hand
.............2C: H+C / Three suited
.............2D: H+D
.............2H: H+S reversed
.............2S: Hearts, no shortness
.........1N: DN

......1S (Unbalanced with 4+ spades)
......1N (Minimum balanced hands)

Note that over 1C - 1D - 1N and 1C - 1D - 1H - 1S - 1N sequences, responder can use 2♣ to (ostensibly) relay opener's hand.

As you had suggested before, there's the possibility of using the 2-way transfers to show some hand patterns as well.

Granted, bidding 1N with a DN hand isn't ideal, but it's unlikely to cost that much because the 20+ balanced hands are so rare anyway and responder can always bid 2♣+ (DN) if it's undesirable.

Pretty sure I follow, but this doesn't work. The point of 1C-1D, 1H as all balanced and some other is to let responder spin off super-positive patterns at +1. If...

1C-1D,
.....1H-
..........1S-balanced or super-positive
..........1N-DN
..........2C+ DN

...then responder isn't showing his super-positive patterns at all. All of those bids have been assigned to the double negatives. You're asking responder to be relay captain for opener's (mostly) balanced shapes. Topsy turvy, especially when responder has a super-positive shapely hand.

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-January-12, 01:01, said:

Pretty sure I follow, but this doesn't work. The point of 1C-1D, 1H as all balanced and some other is to let responder spin off super-positive patterns at +1. If...

1C-1D,
.....1H-
..........1S-balanced or super-positive
..........1N-DN
..........2C+ DN

...then responder isn't showing his super-positive patterns at all. All of those bids have been assigned to the double negatives. You're asking responder to be relay captain for opener's (mostly) balanced shapes. Topsy turvy, especially when responder has a super-positive shapely hand.

The real question to ask yourself is whether it's worth having *frequently* relay at +1 opposite the common minimum balanced hands in 1♥ (not to mention adding a significant amount of complexity).

If the ability to find slam with shapely hands opposite 17-19 balanced hands is a serious concern, it sounds more like a vote of no confidence in the no-trump structure. With 10+ shapely HCPs (the rough equivalent of 7+ QPs) opposite 20+ balanced, with specific RKCs etc., do you really think there will be trouble finding the right slam regardless of who is asking?

On a side note, it will be really interesting to see if a +1 relay structure can find slams that a competent no-trump structure can't.

[straube]

straube, on 2013-January-10, 23:10, said:

.....1H-
..........1S-DN, GF bal, minor family
...............1N-17-21
....................2C-GF bal
....................etc-minor family
...............2C-22+ bal
....................2D-DN, GF bal
.........................2H-24+ or GF 3-suited
..............................2S-DN
...................................2N-24+ bal
...................................etc-3-suited
.........................2S-GF majors
.........................2N-22-23
....................etc-minor family at +2
...............2D-4H/5+D or 3-suited short spade
...............2H-4+S/5+H (treat 4540s as 4531s)
...............2S-5S/5H
...............2N-GF 4D/5C
...............3C-GF clubs
...............3D-GF 5D/4C, higher


.....1S-4+ spades
..........1N-GF relay
...............2C-clubs
...............2D-3-suited
...............2H-single-suited
...............etc-diamonds
..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs
...............2D-natural, nf
...............2H-artificial GF
...............2S-6 spades
..........2D-DN, 5+ diamonds
...............2H-artificial GF
..........2H-DN, 6 hearts
...............2N+ GF
..........2S-DN, 3 spades
.....1N-5+H, denies 4 spades
..........2C-relays
...............2D-4+C
...............2H-single-suited
...............etc-diamonds
..........2D-DN
...............2S-artificial GF
.....2C-5+C/4D, 6+C, 5+C/4H
.....2D-6+D, 5+D/4C
.....2H-5+S/4H (treat 5440s as 5431s)
.....2S-5D/5C
.....2N-GF 4H/5C
.....3C-GF, diamonds
.....3D-GF, 4H/5D, higher

I'm feeling a little better today about this. Sure it's inelegant. Lots of memory work. I'll list arguments for it...

1) Opener can relay responder's hand at +1 when responder has a super-positive hand. These situations...strong balanced opposite strong unbalanced are the must-haves of relays. They are exactly when relays are most advantageous. Imprecision uses....

.....1C-1D, 1H-
..........1S-DN other
..........1N-GF ask
..........2C-DN 5C/5D
..........2D-DN-5D/5S
..........2H-DN-4H
..........2S-DN-5S/5C

.....and these are just too important of bids to use for DN 5/5s. I mean, even standard symmetric places 5/5s at the point of 2S and now we should definitely not be -3 for a DN that will not be relayed. This means either that these bids are wrong or that something wrong occurred earlier in the bidding. I mean, Imprecision's 1C-1D, 1S-2C shows a DN with 3+ clubs and that's a lot less specific than a particular 5/5. Opener may pass. Opener may continue on. But in terms of information shown, it feels much more right. it encompasses far more hand patterns.

Now contrast these sequences to...

.....1C-1D, 1H-
..........1S-DN, bal, or minor family super-positives
..........1N-H/C, H, H/D superpositives
..........2C-H/S/m, H/S superpositives
..........etc-S/C, S, S/D superpositives

I'd argue that what is wrong is not the continuations after the 1C-1D, 1H but what happened earlier in the meaning of 1H. 1H needs to include the balanced hands and not so much hearts. In fact, the only reason it might include hearts at all is for low relay breaks (after 1C-1D, 1H-1S) to show hands that might play in 2H.

Another point is that Imprecision's 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N to show 21-23 balanced is too much of a good thing. Even something like TOSR uses 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N to show something like 20-22 and it is probably more like a good 19 to bad 22. It's nice to be able to stop low, but it costs to do that.

2. While opener will occasionally get in responder's way when he has a GF hand with the minors or with 4H/5m, this is mostly true of Imprecision as well...excepting the 4H/5m hands which (I think) rebid 1H in Imprecision....and also excepting the 5m/5m hands which both Imprecision and this suggestion are able to show at the point of 2S. The good news is that these GF hands ought to be rare because the ability to force game to (usually) the 5-level opposite a DN is rare. Now Imprecision handles the GF heart hands via 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-and then later making a GF while the idea here would be very similar in terms of space...1C-1D, 1N-2D (DN), 2S starting a GF. So low enough. I'm also able to keep low on the GF spade hands via 1C-1D, 1S-2m, 2H as an artificial GF and this feels about right for space because opener has to sort out whether he has just spades or spades and a minor, which is longer, etc. I mean, responder's 2S continuation should probably be forced. Now when opener has a GF with both majors, it goes 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C-2D, 2S which feels about right for space as well. I suppose some simple continuation could sort out all of these GF 2-suiters...reverser/55/unreversed or whatever. I haven't spent the time with it. I know there's room to deliver an approximation.

3. Pretty much this suggestion leaves opener able to stop in reasonable contracts (in the majority instances when opener cannot force opposite a DN) similar to Imprecision...

.....A. Opener can play 2C with 5+C/4H, 5+C/4D, 6+C I think this is the same.
.....B. Opener can play at 2D or 2H with 4H/5+D or 3-suited short spade
.....C. Opener can play at 2H with 5+H/4m or 6H. This alternative is quite a bit ahead of Imprecision here because 1C-1D, 1N-2D can show a 2-fit while 2H can show a 1-fit
..........which helps opener decide whether to bail into a minor. With Imprecision, 1C-1D, 1H-2C shows 5+ hearts and responder's 2D suggests a spade holding (which is
..........not the value meaning for us) and 2H presumably shows 0-3 hearts (depending on whether responder has the texture to show a 6m)
.....D. Opener can show 5+S/4H and play 2H
.....E. Opener can show 4S/5+H and play 2H
.....F. Opener can show 5S/5H and play 2S. This bypasses 2H of course, but it clarifies which suit is longer for the other instances. I feel like if 2S can show 5m/5m successfully, then 2S can show 5S/5H successfully, too. The
..........price I pay here is returned by 1C-1D, 1S-2m, 2H being artificial GF and by preventing 5+S/4+ hand patterns from occurring at the point of 2H which would necessitate them being relayed at more than +1.


Adam, your prior comments and outline were very helpful in correcting some of my mistakes. If you have any other ideas, I'm all ears.

[awm]

A couple things about IMprecision that you have wrong:

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♥ shows at least doubleton heart and almost always exactly three. Hands with short hearts will have 3+ spades (and bid 2♦) or will have 5/5 minors (and take a different path) or will have a 6+ minor (again, will do something different).

We have recently changed 1♣-1♦-1♥-2♣/2♦ to cover three-suited hand patterns with short hearts. This is more frequent and helps substantially on scramble auctions.

-------------------------------

For the merits of your actual structure, it seems okay to me (although quite complicated). There are some places where the double negatives will trip you (in particular you have no way to show a three-card or four-card heart raise over 1♣-1♦-1NT without forcing the three-level on a double-negative). You preempt yourself on the 21-23 flat hands (sure you claim this is no big deal, but I find it helps a lot when it comes up; not so much playing 1NT instead of 2NT as being able to show some pattern on a weak hand with shape). You also have no clear way to show hands with game prospects opposite 0-4 without game forcing (for example 21-22 with some shape), which we can usually manage.

All of these things are small issues, but I suspect what you gain from having balanced opener relay instead of responder when responder has 7+RP is also a pretty small win. The advantage of "having the balanced hand relay" is real, but it's more significant when you are looking for slam on light values than on these hands where you typically have "near-slam" high cards and safety in 4NT. And of course there is the complexity... I recall in a different thread you were complaining about how ridiculous IMprecision is to learn/remember, and this stuff adds a whole new layer of that!

[straube]

awm, on 2013-January-12, 11:31, said:

A couple things about IMprecision that you have wrong:

1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♥ shows at least doubleton heart and almost always exactly three. Hands with short hearts will have 3+ spades (and bid 2♦) or will have 5/5 minors (and take a different path) or will have a 6+ minor (again, will do something different).

We have recently changed 1♣-1♦-1♥-2♣/2♦ to cover three-suited hand patterns with short hearts. This is more frequent and helps substantially on scramble auctions.

-------------------------------

For the merits of your actual structure, it seems okay to me (although quite complicated). There are some places where the double negatives will trip you (in particular you have no way to show a three-card or four-card heart raise over 1♣-1♦-1NT without forcing the three-level on a double-negative). You preempt yourself on the 21-23 flat hands (sure you claim this is no big deal, but I find it helps a lot when it comes up; not so much playing 1NT instead of 2NT as being able to show some pattern on a weak hand with shape). You also have no clear way to show hands with game prospects opposite 0-4 without game forcing (for example 21-22 with some shape), which we can usually manage.

All of these things are small issues, but I suspect what you gain from having balanced opener relay instead of responder when responder has 7+RP is also a pretty small win. The advantage of "having the balanced hand relay" is real, but it's more significant when you are looking for slam on light values than on these hands where you typically have "near-slam" high cards and safety in 4NT. And of course there is the complexity... I recall in a different thread you were complaining about how ridiculous IMprecision is to learn/remember, and this stuff adds a whole new layer of that!

So I started to look at hands and the idea came to me that one could now place the 6+ QP hands unbalanced hands into the 1D response. This tightens your SP/light GF range to 2-5 QPs. With your 6+ QP hands you now get to relay them at +1 (which is no worse than you are doing presently I think) and you are back to even with most systems (Moscito/SCREAM) by the time those 6 QP hands are showing QPs. Sure, there are advantages in putting the 6 QP unbalanced hands in with the SP/light GF hands, but the range of 2-6 is fairly wide (which is the main thing) and you stand at least some risk of opener not feeling safe to search for those 6 QPs for slam purposes. I think 2-5 and 6+ is a more balanced division.

As far as complication, I'm going to argue that this modification is slightly less complicated because on the downside responder's super-positive relays after 1C-1D follow a pretty simple symmetric structure. On the upside, opener's reverse relays after 1C-1D, 1S and 1C-1D, 1N are easier because he doesn't have to show balanced patterns and he doesn't have to show two of the four 3-suited patterns. He doesn't have to show the other major either. It may come down to what one is used to, but as a newbie looking into your system I did find it hard to grasp.

You may not like this still, but inviting you to humor me and develop it with me. I think Atul and I may choose this way and with your help you might see how far it can go.

Btw, I've been looking at the GF opposite DNs through random deals and they are just so uncommon. Sure, we have to have a method for them, but I'm not worried. Much more problematic is something common to both your system and SCREAM which is that opener doesn't have a chance to show extra strength before responder announces the DN. This means that promising shapely hands (say 5/5s of 20 point strength) have to decide whether to underbid or overbid. I read your statement "You also have no clear way to show hands with game prospects opposite 0-4 without game forcing (for example 21-22 with some shape), which we can usually manage." and that's an important concern. I think we are in a similar position after 1C-1D, 1S and even 1C-1D, 1N but I think you have a point about when we opener has specifically both majors. Not sure how Imprecision handles these either.

I know that's part of your interest in having responder be able to show fit for hearts and I think we would probably have to force responder to show a 4-fit for hearts at the 3-level whenever opener has 5+ hearts. With a 9-cd fit I think that's not too concerning.

[straube]

1C-1D (DN, GF bal, or 6+ QP unbal)

.....1H-
..........1S-DN, GF bal, 6+ QP minor family
...............1N-17-21
....................2C-GF bal (leaves enough space here, but concerned about disclosing unnecessary information)
.........................2D-no major
..............................2S-4C/4D
..............................2N-5C322s
..............................3C-4m333
..............................etc-5Ds332
.........................2H-4H
..............................2N-4S
..............................3C-2434
..............................3D-3424
..............................3H-2443
..............................3S-3442
.........................2S-4S
.........................2N-5H332s
.........................3C-4M333
.........................etc-5S332s
....................2D-6+ QP minor family (or heart transfer)
....................2H-6+ QP w/ 6+ clubs (don't show with 5C332) (or spade transfer)
....................2S-6+ QP C/D/M
....................2N-6+ QP 6+ diamonds balanced (or club transfer)
....................etc-
...............2C-22+ bal
....................2D-DN, GF bal
.........................2H-24+ or GF 3-suited
..............................2S-DN
...................................2N-24+ bal
...................................etc-3-suited
.........................2S-GI majors
..............................2N-asking
...................................3C-4S/5+H
...................................3D-5S/5H
...................................3H-5S/4H
...................................3S-6S/4H
.........................2N-22-23
.........................3C-GF-4S/5+H
.........................3D-GF-5S/5H
.........................3H-GF-5S/4H
.........................3S-GF-6S/4H
....................etc-minor family at +2
...............2D-4H/5+D or 3-suited short spade
....................2S-GF relay
.........................2N-3-suited short spade
.........................3C-4H/5+D, higher
.........................3D-2452
.........................etc
...............2H-4+S/5+H (treat 4540s as 4531s)
....................2N-GF relay
...............2S-5S/5H
....................2N-GF relay
...............2N-GF clubs
...............3C-GF 4D/5C
...............3D-GF 5D/4C


.....1S-4+ spades
..........1N-GF relay
...............2C-clubs
...............2D-3-suited
...............2H-single-suited
...............etc-diamonds
..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs
...............2D-natural, nf
...............2H-artificial GF
...............2S-6 spades
...............other-invitational
..........2D-DN, 5+ diamonds
...............2H-artificial GF
...............2S-usually 6 spades
...............2N-to play
...............3C-to play
..........2H-DN, 6 hearts
...............2S-6 spades
...............2N-GF
...............3m-GF, 5+
...............3H-GI
..........2S-DN, 3 spades
.....1N-5+H, denies 4 spades
..........2C-relays
...............2D-4+C
...............2H-single-suited
...............etc-diamonds
..........2D-DN, 2-3 hearts
...............2S-artificial GF
..........2H-DN, 0-1 hearts
...............2S-artificial GF
...............2N-a 4-cd minor, nf
....................3C-p/c
...............3m-a 5-cd minor, nf
..........2S-DN, 6+ spades
..........2N-4+ hearts, good hand for DN
..........3m-0-1 heart, to play
..........3H-4+ hearts, bad hand for DN
.....2C-5+C/4D, 6+C, 5+C/4H
..........2D-GF relay
...............2H-6+C
...............2S-5+C/4D
...............etc-5+C/4H
.....2D-6+D, 5+D/4C
..........2H-GF relay
...............2S-5+D/4C
...............etc-6+D
.....2H-5+S/4H (treat 5440s as 5431s)
..........2N-GF relay
.....2S-5D/5C, any 16+, forcing
..........2N-GF relay
..........3m-DN preference
.....2N-GF diamonds
.....3C-GF, 4H/5C
.....3D-GF, 4H/5D

[straube]

The latest...

1C-1D (DN, GF bal, or 6+ QP unbal)

.....1H-
..........1S-DN, GF bal, 6+ QP heart family (I moved this since opener has right-sided hearts)
...............1N-17-21
....................2C-GF bal (leaves enough space here, but concerned about disclosing unnecessary information)
.........................2D-no major
..............................2S-4C/4D
..............................2N-5C322s
..............................3C-4m333
..............................etc-5Ds332
.........................2H-4H
..............................2N-4S
..............................3C-2434
..............................3D-3424
..............................3H-2443
..............................3S-3442
.........................2S-4S
.........................2N-5H332s
.........................3C-4M333
.........................etc-5S332s
....................2D-6+ QP H/C OR heart transfer
....................2H-6+ QP w/6+H(don't show with 5H332) OR spade transfer
....................etc-6+ QP H/D
...............2C-22+ bal
....................2D-DN, GF bal
.........................2H-24+ or GF 3-suited
..............................2S-DN
...................................2N-24+ bal
...................................etc-3-suited
.........................2S-GI majors
..............................2N-asking
...................................3C-4S/5+H
...................................3D-5S/5H
...................................3H-5S/4H
...................................3S-6S/4H
.........................2N-22-23
.........................3C-GF-4S/5+H
.........................3D-GF-5S/5H
.........................3H-GF-5S/4H
.........................3S-GF-6S/4H
....................2H-6+ QPs, H/C
....................etc-heart family at +2
...............2D-4H/5+D or 3-suited short spade
....................2S-GF relay
.........................2N-3-suited short spade
.........................3C-4H/5+D, higher
.........................3D-2452
.........................etc
...............2H-4+S/5+H (treat 4540s as 4531s)
....................2N-GF relay
...............2S-5S/5H
....................2N-GF relay
...............2N-GF clubs
...............3C-GF 4H/5C (I moved this because now opener gets to declare hearts and his bidding sounds like a canape)
...............3D-GF 4H/5D
..........1N-6+ QP, S/C, S, S/D
..........2C-6+ QP, S/H/m, S/h
..........etc-6+ QP, C/D, C, C/D/M, D ( I moved this to make sure they resolve easily below 3N)


.....1S-4+ spades
..........1N-GF relay
...............2C-clubs
...............2D-3-suited
...............2H-single-suited
...............etc-diamonds
..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs
...............2D-natural, nf
...............2H-artificial GF
...............2S-6 spades
...............other-invitational
..........2D-DN, 5+ diamonds
...............2H-artificial GF
...............2S-usually 6 spades
...............2N-to play
...............3C-to play
..........2H-DN, 6 hearts
...............2S-6 spades
...............2N-GF
...............3m-GF, 5+
...............3H-GI
..........2S-DN, 3 spades
.....1N-5+H, denies 4 spades
..........2C-relays
...............2D-4+C
...............2H-single-suited
...............etc-diamonds
..........2D-DN, 2-3 hearts (in theory, responder can show heart tolerance and then a longer minor)
...............2S-artificial GF
..........2H-DN, 0-1 hearts
...............2S-artificial GF
...............2N-a 4-cd minor, nf
....................3C-p/c
...............3m-a 5-cd minor, nf
..........2S-DN, 6+ spades
..........2N-4+ hearts, good hand for DN
..........3m-0-1 heart, to play
..........3H-4+ hearts, bad hand for DN
.....2C-5+C/4D, 6+C, 5+C/4H
..........2D-GF relay
...............2H-6+C
...............2S-5+C/4D
...............etc-5+C/4H
.....2D-6+D, 5+D/4C
..........2H-GF relay
...............2S-5+D/4C
...............etc-6+D
.....2H-5+S/4H (treat 5440s as 5431s)
..........2N-GF relay
.....2S-5D/5C, any 16+, forcing
..........2N-GF relay
..........3m-DN preference
.....2N-GF diamonds
.....3C-GF, 4D/5C
.....3D-GF, 4C/5D
.....3M-probably more could be done here to flesh out the GF minors

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-January-13, 05:02, said:

The latest...

1C-1D (DN, GF bal, or 6+ QP unbal)


.....1S-4+ spades
..........1N-GF relay
...............2C-clubs
...............2D-3-suited
...............2H-single-suited
...............etc-diamonds
..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs

The 2♣ as ♣ seems to be a typo. There are a lot of options, but the ♠+♣ should align with the +1 track.

It almost seems that there's extra one extra step left over here and you can probably fit a 5♠, 4♥ hand somewhere here.

One possibility is to use a variation on the original and limit the 2♥ to only 4♥, which means that opener's immediate 2♥ over 1♣ - 1♦ can show 5+♥ / 5+♠ (or viceversa).

2♣: ♠+♣ or 3-suited
2♦: ♠+♦
2♥: 5♠+4♥
2♠: ♠

[straube]

akhare, on 2013-January-13, 15:35, said:

The 2♣ as ♣ seems to be a typo. There are a lot of options, but the ♠+♣ should align with the +1 track.

It almost seems that there's extra one extra step left over here and you can probably fit a 5♠, 4♥ hand somewhere here.

One possibility is to use a variation on the original and limit the 2♥ to only 4♥, which means that opener's immediate 2♥ over 1♣ - 1♦ can show 5+♥ / 5+♠ (or viceversa).

2♣: ♠+♣ or 3-suited
2♦: ♠+♦
2♥: 5♠+4♥
2♠: ♠

If our goal is to be no more than +1 I suppose something like...

2C-3-suited, 5+S/4+H
.....2H-3-suited higher OR 5+S/4H
.....2S-3-suited, middle
.....2N-5S/5H
.....etc-3-suited, low
2D-S/C
2H-S
etc-S/D

You could do something like that. OTOH, that's quite a bit of pressure on opener when his hand doesn't get relayed out. I mean 1C-1D, 1S-2C and now opener has lots of work to do whenever he has a GF hand. I wanted to create a "4SF" bid so that responder can basically stall and let opener can describe big shapely hands. I really don't want 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2H be an offer to play.

So if you included heart hands in responder's spade rebid, they would need to be invitational or GF heart hands such that 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2H is still "4SF" but perhaps 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 3H was invitational or whatever.

Trying to look at it objectively, I think your way has some compensations...because it leaves room for 1C-1D, 1S-1N which will pattern out opener's hand much better than leaping about ever can.

At the moment I'm inclined not to go that route. The reason is 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 3H only allows for opener to show one of many different hand patterns and can be only invitational or GF but not both. After
1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2H could handle perhaps some other invitational or GF S/H hand patterns in addition to all of the GF S/C, S, and S/D patterns, but I think space is very tight here and the less opener has to describe the better. After all, we're at the point of 2H and so far opener is only known to have four spades.

Another reason not to do this is that it's nice to be +0 as opposed to +1, even occasionally.

The last reason is it might be a bit messy. Say you determined there was space after 1C-1S, 2C to show GF 6S/4H hands but not other hands. Maybe 1C-1S, 2C-2H, 1N-3H showed GI 6S/4H hands. Well, it's an exception one would have to remember.

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-January-13, 17:20, said:

You could do something like that. OTOH, that's quite a bit of pressure on opener when his hand doesn't get relayed out. I mean 1C-1D, 1S-2C and now opener has lots of work to do whenever he has a GF hand. I wanted to create a "4SF" bid so that responder can basically stall and let opener can describe big shapely hands. I really don't want 1C-1D, 1S-2C, 2H be an offer to play.

OK -- seems like in this scheme, opener's 1♠ rebid can't have hands with 4♥ (with possibly the exception of 41♥44).

In essence, all GF hands with 4+♥ go via 1♥, right?

[straube]

akhare, on 2013-January-13, 17:44, said:

OK -- seems like in this scheme, opener's 1♠ rebid can't have hands with 4♥ (with possibly the exception of 41♥44).

In essence, all GF hands with 4+♥ go via 1♥, right?

Well, all the GF hands with 5+ hearts and no major go through a 1N rebid. All the GF 4H/5m hands go through 1H. All the GI+ both majors go through 1H.

5M4M40 are shown as 5431s and this costs something.

I think this structure is making some pretty good tradeoffs, but say compared to SCREAM the 1D is more loaded. We ought to expect being +1, jumping with good hands when we could have taken the slow road opposite a positive hand, etc. The idea is that the SPs/light GF hands have auctions that hopefully more than compensate for this. Don't have to convince you that our 1H semipositives are overloaded.

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-January-13, 18:14, said:

I think this structure is making some pretty good tradeoffs, but say compared to SCREAM the 1D is more loaded. We ought to expect being +1, jumping with good hands when we could have taken the slow road opposite a positive hand, etc. The idea is that the SPs/light GF hands have auctions that hopefully more than compensate for this. Don't have to convince you that our 1H semipositives are overloaded.

The overload of 1♥ is a double whammy because it eliminates two useful 1-level bids while conveying very little distributional information. The 1♦ is overloaded in theory, but in the original version of IMP, none (?) of responder's super-positive hands are relayed out.

[straube]

In general, opener only shows a single-suited hand with 6-cd suits. Responder shows 5-cd suits only when semipositive or light GF strength. He shows 6-cd suits only when super-positive strength.

Changed a couple of things. I noticed we needed a spot for GI 4H/5+m so we've room for that.

Changed 1C-2D to be only 4H/5+C and not 4+H. Put the 5D/5C into 1C-1S so opener can show a major before getting preempted. Both of those are judgment calls and may not be improvements. Is it more important to show 4+H/5+C than 5H when you also have clubs?

I like that 1C-1D, 2m rebids are the same as 1C-1H, 2m rebids.

1C-1N, 2C relays are the same as 1C-1D, 1N-2C relays.

Would rather give more pattern definition to the GI+ major suit hands. Reverser/long-legged/reversed doesn't cut it.

Atul and I practiced this a bit today and I like the 2-5 division and we did encounter 6+ relays and got to at least one successful slam that I think we would have missed had the range been 2-6. Pd had 6 exactly. Very much like being able to nearly always relay one hand or the other.

Welcome any feedback, rearrangement to make memorization easier, etc. We're used to showing suits in a different order (burying the clubs for example) so it's easier if we switch that.


1C-1D (DN, GF bal or 6+ QP unbal)
.....1H (bal, 4+H or GF clubs or GF 3-suited)
..........1S-DN, GF bal OR 6+ QP heart family
...............1N-17-21 bal
....................2C-GF relay
.........................2D-no major
..............................2H-4H
..............................2S-4S
..............................2N-5H
..............................3C-4M333
..............................etc-5S
....................2D- 6+ H/C
....................2H-6+ H (6-cd)
....................etc-H/D
...............2C-22+ bal OR GI+ majors OR GF 3-suited
....................2D-DN OR GF bal
.........................2H-GF, 24+ bal OR 3-suited
..............................2S-asks
...................................2N-24+
...................................3C-spade short
...................................etc
.........................2S-GI majors
..............................2N-asks
...................................3C-reverser
...................................3D-5/5
...................................3H-unreversed
.........................2N-21-23
.........................3C-GF majors, reverser
.........................3D-GF majors, 5/5
.........................3H-GF majors, unreversed
....................2H-H/C
....................etc
...............2D-4H/5+D OR 3-suited, short spade
....................2H-to play
....................2S-GF relay
.........................2N-3-suited short spade
..............................etc-4/5+D
...............2H-5S/4H
....................2S-to play
....................2N-GF relay
...............2S-5S/5H
...............2N-GF clubs
...............3C-GI, 4H/5+C
...............3D-GI, 4H/5+D
...............3H-GF, 4H/5+C
...............3S-GF, 4H/5+D
..........1N-6+ QP, S/C, S, S/D
..........2C-6+ QP, S/H/m, S/H
..........etc-6+ QP, C/D, C, C/D/M, D
.....1S-4+ spades
..........1N-GF relay
...............2C-3-suited
...............2D-S/C
...............2H-S (6-cd)
...............2S-S/D
..........2C-DN, 3+ clubs
..........2D-DN, 5+ diamonds (& 3 more diamonds than clubs)
..........2H-DN, 6+ hearts
..........2S-DN, 3+ spades
.....1N-5+ hearts, denies 4+ spades
..........2C-GF relay
...............2D-4+ clubs
...............2H-6-cd
...............2S-5D
...............etc-5+/4D
..........2D-DN, 2-3 hearts
...............2H-to play
....................2S-6S/2H
....................etc-
...............2S-artificial GF
...............other-natural, invitational
..........2H-DN, 0-1 hearts
...............2S-artificial GF
....................other-natural, to play
..........2S-DN, 0-1 hearts, 6+ spades
..........2N-DN, 0-1 hearts, 5+/5+ minors
..........3m-DN, 0-1 hearts, 6-cd+
.....2C-5+C/4D, 6+C, 5+C/4H unbalanced
..........2D-GF relay
...............2H-6-cd C
...............2S-4D
...............etc-4H
.....2D-6+D, 5+D/4C
..........2H-GF relay
.....2H-4S/5H (treat 4540 and 4504 as 4531 and 4513)
.....2S-5+C/5+D, 16+
..........2N-GF relay
..........other-DN natural
.....2N-GF diamonds
.....3C-GF 5C/4D
.....3D-GF 5D/4C


1C-1H
.....1S relays, if not GF will be any hand with 4S or 5H
..........1N-bal, S/C, or 3-suited short in a red suit)
...............2C-GF relay
...............2D-3-suited, 2-5 QPs OR bal, 2-5 QPs
....................2H-relays
.........................2S-3-suited
..............................2N-relays
...................................3C-heart short
...................................3D-4414
...................................etc
.........................2N-4H
.........................3C-4234
.........................3D-4324
.........................3H-4243
.........................3S-4342
.........................3N-4333
...............2H-S/D reverser
...............etc-S/D
..........2C-S/D
...............2D-GF relay
...............2H-5H, natural and not forcing
...............2S-4S, minimum
..........2D-S, 5-cd+
...............2H-GF relay
....................2S-5332s
....................2N-6322s
....................3C-higher
....................etc
...............2S-nf, 5H, 2-3 spades
...............2N-nf, 5H, 0-1 spade
..........2H-S/H reverser
..........etc
.....1N-17-20 bal, not 4 spades
.....2C-same hands as 1C-1D, 2C
.....2D-same hands as 1C-1D, 2D
.....2H-6H, single-suited
..........2S-GF relay
..........2N-inv
..........3m-inv
..........3H-inv
..........3S-inv
.....2S-5C/5D, any strength
..........2N-GF relay
.....2N-6H/4m
.....3L-inv



1C-1S, 2-5 QPs, 5D/4C, 5D/4H, 6D, bal
.....1N-17-19 balanced (includes 5M332s and 4S(5m31))
..........2C-stayman (could be 4H/5D weak)
...............2D-not 4H
...............2H-4H min
....................3H-4H inv
..........2D-5D/4C or 6D min
..........2H-1354, max
..........2S-3154, max
..........2N-inv
..........3C-5D/5C max
..........3D-6D max
..........3H-0355 max
..........3S-3055 max

.....2C-GF relay
..........2D-bal, 2-4 QPs
...............2H-relay
....................2S-four hearts
.........................2N-relay
..............................3C-2434
..............................3D-3424
..............................3H-2443
..............................3S-3442
..............................3N-3433
....................2N-5C332 or 4C333
....................3C-4m4m
....................3D-2353
.........................3H-3253
.........................3S-3352
.........................3N-3343
...............2H-6-cd diamonds
...............2S-5+D/4C
...............2N-5+D/5+C
...............etc-5+D/4H
.....2D-6+M OR 4H canape or 1444, 16-19
..........P-min, 6+D
..........2H-min, <=3H
...............P-6H
...............2S-6S
...............2N-1-4-4-4
...............3C-4H, 5+C, unbal
...............3D-4H, 5+D, unbal
..........2S-min, 3+H, <=3S
...............P-6S
...............2N-1-4-4-4
...............3C-4H, 5+C, unbal
...............3D-4H, 5+D, unbal
...............3H-min, 6H
..........2N-max, asking
...............3C-4H, 5+C, unbal
...............3D-4H, 5+D unbal
...............3H-6H
...............3S-6S
...............3N-1-4-4-4
..........3C-5D, 4+C, forcing
..........3D-6D, forcing
.....2H-16-19, 5H, side suit
..........P-2 or 3 hearts, min if 3
..........2S-asks second suit
...............2N-4 spades
..........2N-max, 2H
..........3C-5D/4+C, GF
..........3D-6D
..........3H-raise
.....2S-16-19, 5S, side suit
..........P-2 or 3 spades, min if 3
..........2N-asks second suit
...............P-min 5S/4H
....................3C-4+ clubs
....................3D-4+ diamonds
....................3H-min, 5+ hearts
....................3S-max, 5+ hearts
....................3N-max, 4H
..........3C-5D/4+C, GF
..........3D-6D OR 5D/4H, GF
..........3H-4H, GF bal
..........3S-raise
.....2N-16-19, 5/4+ minors
.....3m-16-19, 6+ m
.....3M-invitational

1C-1N, 2-5 QPs, 5+H, denies 4+ spades
.....2C-GF relay
..........same as 1C-1D, 1N
.....2D-5+ spades
..........2H-min, 0-1 spades
..........2S-min, 2 spades
..........2N-GF, 2 spades
..........3C-GF, 4+ clubs
..........3D-GF, 4+ diamonds
..........3H-GF, 6+H, 0-1 spades
..........3S-min, 3 spades
..........3N-36xx, COG
..........4C-diamond splinter
..........4D-club splinter
..........4H-to play
..........4S-to play
.....2H-minimum, usually only 2 hearts
..........2S-5H/5D, invitational
..........3H invitational
..........other-natural GF
.....2S-5+D, 5+C
..........2N-GF relay
..........3m-to play
..........3H-to play
..........3S-stopper ask
.....2N-0-1 hearts, minimum (e.g. 4144, 3145, 3154, 4045, 4054)
.....3m-0-1 hearts, 6+ minor, minimum
.....3H-3+ hearts, minimum

1C-2C, 2-5 QPs, 5+ clubs unbalanced
.....2D-GF relay
..........2H-4D/5+C
..........etc-6C
.....2H-5+ hearts, needs tolerance
..........P-2 hearts, minimum
..........2S-2 hearts, maximum
..........2N-0-1 hearts, 4 diamonds, minimum
..........3C-0-1 hearts, 6+ clubs, minimum
..........3D-0-1 hearts, short weak diamonds, 6+ clubs, GF
..........3H-3 hearts, minimum
..........3S-0-1 hearts, short weak spades, 6+ clubs, GF
..........3N-0-1 hearts
..........4C-3H, good clubs, GF
..........4D-3 hearts and singleton or void spades, GF
..........4H-3 hearts and a maximum
.....2S-5+ spades, needs tolerance
..........P-2 spades, minimum
...............2N-0-1 spades, both minors, minimum
...............3C-0-2 spades, 6+ clubs, minimum
...............3D-0-2 spades, short weak diamonds (hence 6 clubs), GF
....................3H-5 hearts
...............3H-0-2 spades, short weak hearts, GF
...............3S-3 spades, minimum
.....2N-0-2 clubs, minimum
.....3C-3+ clubs, minimum
.....3L-natural and invitational

1C-2D 2-5 QPs, 4H, 5+C
.....2H-GF relay
.....2S-5+ spades, needs tolerance
..........P-2 spades, minimum
..........2N-0-1 spades, minimum
..........3C-0-1 spades, 6+ clubs, minimum
..........3D-0-2 spades, short weak diamonds, GF
..........3H-0-1 spades, 6+ clubs, maximum
..........3S-3 spades, minimum
..........3N-suggests a contact
..........4C-3406, good clubs
..........4S-3415
.....2N-no fit, minimum
.....3C-3+ clubs, minimum
.....3D-natural, nf
.....3H-4+ hearts, minimum
.....3S-natural, invitational

1C-2H 3-suited, short spade
.....2S-GF relay
.....2N-minimum, misfit

1C-2S-3-suited, club short

[sieong]

I think you are missing 5♥332 semi-positive for responder after 1♣ - 1N - 2♣. I suppose one could try 1♣ - 1N - 2♣ - 2♥ as 5+♥, but in our experience single-suited +1 track is quite a bit of a loss to the standard track.

[straube]

sieong, on 2013-January-22, 01:10, said:

I think you are missing 5♥332 semi-positive for responder after 1♣ - 1N - 2♣. I suppose one could try 1♣ - 1N - 2♣ - 2♥ as 5+♥, but in our experience single-suited +1 track is quite a bit of a loss to the standard track.

Thanks. I couldn't figure out why you guys put the 5H/5C hands into 2D (other than showing 9 cds right away) and Adam explained it was largely to do with finding space for the single-suited and that makes a lot of sense. 2D does have ample room for the 5/5s, too. Although you might make 2S the relay bid here and then you'd be +0. Hard when you want to stop in two spades.

Hope you don't mind our tinkering with your system. It's like 90% IMPrecision and 10% SCREAM thrown together. Anyway, we have to reorder the relays to what we're accustomed...different suit orders and such. Feel free if you have any other suggestions.

[straube]

Slept on it and seeing why you use 1C-2D as 4+H/5+C.

Any advice for what to do with the 3-suited semipositives such as 1C-2H short spades? There's no way to invite opposite that. Each hand has to decide whether to force game or not.

Also how has 1C-2S as 5/5 minors worked? Same issue for that bid whether it's minors or short clubs as we're exploring. No way to invite.

[straube]

We're trying...

1C-2H (3-suited short spade, 2-5 QPs)
.....2S-GF relay
.....2N-minimum, misfit
.....3C-weakness signal, wants to play in a suit
..........3D-p/c
..........other-natural, GF
.....3D-invites
.....3H-invites

1C-2S (3-suited short club, 2-5 QPs)
.....2N-minimum, misfit
.....3C-GF relay
.....3D-weakness signal, wants to play in a suit
..........3H-p/c
..........other-natural, GF
.....3M-invites

1C-2N+ (6+ QPs and 6+ hearts, single-suited)

This now means that...

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N-
.....2C-GF ask, usually balanced
.....2D-H/C, 6+ QPs OR DN with 5+ hearts (at least this bid promises 4 or more hearts whatever the strength)
.....2H-DN with 5+ spades
.....etc-H/D, 6+ QPs

So we still have a 2-way bid of 2D here but 2H is no longer 2-way and always shows the weak hand with spades.
This has occasionally but rarely been a problem for us...when a DN hand with a major wants to try for game, especially when opposite a super-accept.

So a partial fix when responder has hearts...

1C-1D, 1H-1S, 1N-2D, 2S can be the super-accept and now responder continues to pattern out with the good hand or signs off in 3H or 4H with the bad hand. Of course we're now +2

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-February-11, 11:03, said:

We're trying...

1C-2H (3-suited short spade, 2-5 QPs)
.....2S-GF relay
.....2N-minimum, misfit
.....3C-weakness signal, wants to play in a suit
..........3D-p/c
..........other-natural, GF
.....3D-invites
.....3H-invites

1C-2S (3-suited short club, 2-5 QPs)
.....2N-minimum, misfit
.....3C-GF relay
.....3D-weakness signal, wants to play in a suit
..........3H-p/c
..........other-natural, GF
.....3M-invites

The flaw in the weakness signal are that:

1) We can't play in 3♣
2) Responder can't show 5♥ and offer a COG over 2♠
3) It's yet another obscure exception to remember for a very infrequent response

In short, the disadvantages might outweigh the proffered advantages and the frequency is way too small to make it worthwhile

Contrast this with a simpler approach where prime 18 / all 19 points just bid game. Yes, on a bad day, we may land in a game opposite as little as AXXX XXXX XXXX x, but are the odds frequent enough to really matter?

[straube]

I tallied hands for 1C responses. We have more 1D responses than Imprecision because we've put the superpositives with 6+ QPs into the 1D response. Nothing really requires us to do so, but I like this division. I'm a little disappointed to see so many 1D responses. It would argue for putting the 6 QP hands into the semipositive/light GF hands but...

1D-55%
1H-17%
1S-15%
1N-7%
2C-5%
2D-1%

I also tallied opener's rebids after an 1D response. I like this distribution much better.

1H-42%
1S-23%
1N-10%
2C-12%
2D-9%
2H-4%

[straube]

My latest tallies for 200 hands....

1. Responses to 1C

1D DN responses-17.5%
1D 6 QP responses-15%
1D 7+ QP responses-18.5%

1D-50.5%
1H-16.5%
1S-20%
1N-7%
2C-2.5%
2D-2%
2N-1.5%

I think the slight change here is that GF balanced are not bidding 1D unless they have 6 QPs. Btw, 2N shows 6H bal and 6+ QPs

2. Opener's rebids after 1C-1D

1H-47%
1S-27%
1N-9%
2C-6%
2D-4%
2H-4%
2S-1%


3. Responder's rebids after 1C-1D, 1H

1S with DN-34%
1S with bal-36%
1S with 6+ and heart/othe-9%

1S-79%
1N-5% (S, S/m, 6+ QPs)
2C-2% (S/H)
2D-5% (C/D)
2H-2% (C
2N-2% (C/D/M)
3H-2% (D)
3N-2% (D)

or another way of looking at it...
DN responses-34%
GF bal responses-36%
6+QP unbal responses-30%

Why do I bother with this? Well Adam groups 2-6 QP responses into his semipositive/light GF responses (not 1D) and that would certainly flatten out the distribution of responses. The 1D response would be cut down to 35% or so which from a Fibonacci standpoint would be much better. OTOH, since we're exploring having 1C-1D, 1H as including all balanced hands, if we had no 6 QP hands in the mix, then we'd just cut our unbalanced responses almost in half. 1C-1D, 1H would continue with 1S almost 90% of the time. Having it 79% of the time feels wrong enough. 90% seems far worse. Btw, I like our auctions after 1C-1D, 1H but having the 1S bid be so high just makes me wonder if there isn't a problem somewhere earlier (the problem could be with 1C-1D, 1H or 1C-1D or even 1C)

So all this may point to Adam being right after all that 1C-1D, 1H should show primarily heart hands but it's really not clear to me at all. Both ways could be acceptable continuations. I think in an uncontested auction, I like our division of 2-5 and 6+ QPs. 2-6 is a little wide I think and opener may lose out on knowing of 6 QPs when space is tight. In a contest auction really not sure. In fact it might be better to hold off with the 6 QP hands because the distributional information they might give round 1 is really not so much (usually whether responder has 4+ spades or not) while passing and then doubling in later puts us clearly in a GF.

Any comment from Adam?