[Codo]

fromageGB, on 2012-September-10, 07:29, said:

I play 1♠ as forcing, and also play 2♣ as forcing. So I pass.

To those who play 2♣ as non-forcing : what do you do with a better (say invitational values) hand?

Because of this everyday problem, I bid 2 NT to show a good heart raise and 2 ♦ to show a forcing hand with no clear goal.
And personally, I like to play strong jump shifts here, so if it is a hand all about clubs, I would bid 3 ♣, this way something like 2 ♦ then 3 ♣ is quite uncertain about the strain with 5 or 6 clubs, a direct jump forcing with a real suit.
But this is hardly mainstream- maybe not any stream at all.

[the hog]

fromageGB, on 2012-September-10, 07:29, said:

I play 1♠ as forcing, and also play 2♣ as forcing. So I pass.

To those who play 2♣ as non-forcing : what do you do with a better (say invitational values) hand?

Find a raise, bid 2D or NT to the appropriate level.

[MrAce]

fromageGB, on 2012-September-10, 07:29, said:

To those who play 2♣ as non-forcing : what do you do with a better (say invitational values) hand?

You still bid nf 2♣ NF doesn't mean that you have a trash. You are looking at it the other way and trying to make response to an overcall a "defined bid" which is very hard to do. Overcaller will pass with minimum values and no fit. He will almost always show if he has a fit to your suit and a minimum hand by simple raise, number of trumps your side holds will be usually enough to play a 3 level partscore in the worst case. As oppose to playing it forcing now if overcaller makes another bid rather than raising you or cueing or passing, you will have extra info about his hand than those who plays it forcing, because after all pd has to bid something over a forcing 2♣, but over a nf 2♣ you know he is bidding because he wants to, not because he was forced to.

It has downsides too, of course. But i wouldn't worry about pd passing my 2♣ when he overcalled 1♠ over 1♥ and i have xx xx AQx AKJxxx. Lets say he has AJxxx Kxx Jxxx x. I am happy to play 2♣. Lets say he has AJxxx xxx Jx Qxx and raised me to 3♣ i am still happy to play there. 1 level overcall by the way, for me, can be made with much weaker hands than the example i gave for pd. To me AQTxx alone is basically enough to make an overcall (but i am not stupid, vulnerability matters of course)

So playing nf but constructive style responses to overcall is not as scary as people thinks of it. It really doesnt worth to sit and imagine hands where we may have a giant when at least 3 people at the table are bidding, sometimes 4 and noone preempted. It gives you a lot of flexibility.

Playing it forcing also has some advantages, for example you have 3 card fit + 6 card suit or AQ AK KJ KQ tide support for pd + long suit of yours and you really dont want pd to pass even with min and you really wanna mention your suit too...but i like it the other way.

[dake50]

1S looks more like S:xx H:Jxxx D:x C:KQJxxx.
Some chance to win in hearts if we spook their spades.

[lycier]

maybe this hand need many of flexible bids to show,so bid 2c force a round at first,then wait a chance to bid 2s,and then rebid 3c is as a final bid with non-forcing,believe partner can have last decision rightly.

[mikeh]

han, on 2012-September-06, 03:01, said:

So I take it that you would pass 1H? If mikeh was here he would post a hand where 1H is hopeless but 6C makes.

No I wouldn't.

Well, I might but it would only be to illustrate the problem with my usual approach, which is that 2♣ would be forcing.

Thus I would usually pass 1♥.

I am seriously considering switching to 'constructive but nf'. I don't think it is the panacea that some seem to feel it to be, but I suspect it may work better than forcing...which I have played for 30+ years. Not, however, out of fear of missing a club slam! It has, of course, far more to do with improving the contract, getting a lead, and competing for the partscore than it does about hoping to find game or slam.

And of course many times the problem doesn't arise if one plays transfer advances. (1♣) 1♥ (P) and we have no problem with Jxxx x KQJxxx xx: to me that is a prototypical 2♣ transfer, which is defined in my partnerships as the equivalent of a weak 2 in the suit shown, or better.....partner to bid, initially, as if the former.

[fromageGB]

mikeh, on 2012-September-11, 12:43, said:

And of course many times the problem doesn't arise if one plays transfer advances. (1♣) 1♥ (P) and we have no problem with Jxxx x KQJxxx xx: to me that is a prototypical 2♣ transfer, which is defined in my partnerships as the equivalent of a weak 2 in the suit shown, or better.....partner to bid, initially, as if the former.

Mais oui, however this time there is no transfer available. I, too, am thinking of changing to "constructive but not forcing". Something for the partnership to discuss.

Thanks to Codo/the hog/MrAce for the replies.

[nigel_k]

I play 2♣ constructive but NF. But I would expect partner to keep bidding if he has an opening bid or close to that. If he just has AKxxx with or without a little outside he can pass, and if I want to be in game opposite that I have to start with a cue bid.

So 2♣ could still be too much here. It looks like either partner will get us too high, or opponents would have reopened anyway. I would consider pass but I don't make the really heavy one level overcalls that other people on this forum do.

[han]

mikeh, on 2012-September-11, 12:43, said:

I am seriously considering switching to 'constructive but nf'. I don't think it is the panacea that some seem to feel it to be, but I suspect it may work better than forcing...which I have played for 30+ years.

I don't think it is a panacea either, but I also didn't read any posts suggesting that it is. As is common in bridge, whatever agreement you make you will regret it on some hands. Give me three more aces and I'd wish I had a forcing 2C available. However, I think that the strength of the given hand is more common.

Of course it depends also on overcall style. If you are on one side of the spectrum where an overcall shows something like an opening hand, then playing 2C as forcing makes a lot more sense. If you are on the other side, where KQ10xx is an automatic 1H overcall, then it will be rare to hold clubs-hands with which you will want to force.

Probably most of us are somewhere in between. I can imagine that for some pairs playing 2C as forcing when vulnerable but NF when non-vulnerable could even be an optimal agreement.

[gnasher]

I usually play 2♣ as forcing because I want to be able to play all cue-bids and jump shifts as promising a fit, and it feels wrong to have no way to bid a good hand without a fit.

However, I'm tempted to switch to NF and just wing it if I pick up a hand that wants to force. Does anyone else do that?

[JLOGIC]

mikeh, on 2012-September-11, 12:43, said:

I am seriously considering switching to 'constructive but nf'. I don't think it is the panacea that some seem to feel it to be, but I suspect it may work better than forcing...which I have played for 30+ years. Not, however, out of fear of missing a club slam! It has, of course, far more to do with improving the contract, getting a lead, and competing for the partscore than it does about hoping to find game or slam.

Mike I'm proud of you. You get it. That is what bridge in 2012 is about. I would add in "make life a little bit more difficult for them" as well.

[JLOGIC]

gnasher, on 2012-September-13, 04:19, said:

I usually play 2♣ as forcing because I want to be able to play all cue-bids and jump shifts as promising a fit, and it feels wrong to have no way to bid a good hand without a fit.

However, I'm tempted to switch to NF and just wing it if I pick up a hand that wants to force. Does anyone else do that?

It is probably playable, but I can't imagine playing 3C as a fit rather than just strong and forcing with clubs is better. Is fit really that important when RHO passes?

FWIW I do play with Bob that you just wing it when it goes bid bid bid to you, jump is fit and new suit is non forcing (even at the 3 level), good luck. The idea being if it goes bid bid bid to you you will never have a slam without a big fit for partner, so you can usually just jump to game or double and wing it if you have a strong hand with your own suit.