[han]

We arrived in 6D off the AK of clubs. Since they didn't led the a club and we made 7, perhaps it shouldn't be an ATB, and besides, it is not so clear to me that either of us did something wrong. Still, I would like to hear your opinions on an auction with several interesting decisions.

xx
AKQJ
AKJx
J10x

AKxx
-
Q109xxx
Qxx

Our auction:

1D - (1S) - Dbl
2D - 2S
2NT - 3D
4H - 4NT
5NT (odd with void) - 6D
all pass

Perhaps in a perfect world 4NT in this auction should not be keycards, but it was keycards for us. I am more interested in the best way to bid this hand with "standard" agreements. For cyberyeti, that means five card majors, strong notrumps, and 1D 3+.

[paulg]

I'm not sure anyone did anything particularly wrong. It seems strange to never bid hearts when holding the top four, but the only chance to do this is over 2NT and showing very strong diamond support first seems very reasonable. Perhaps North could sign off after four hearts, but he knows partner will never bid on missing three of the top four diamonds even when he does hold a club stop.

C'est la vie.

[Cyberyeti]

As a matter of preference, I very much prefer not to bid at the 6 level with 1 and a void for precisely this reason, it's not infrequently insufficient to be at the 6 level when it overlaps with one of partner's aces, and you don't get to find out about Q♦ but if that's what you play ...

What did 4♥ show ? for us would be void so there would be no need to show the void again, if it's a possible stiff, then I would bid 3♠ over 3♦ rather than 4♥ and find the heart cue later (except that we'd have the room either to play 3N or fail to find a 4♣ cue between us and not investigate the slam further).

Our auction would not be useful here as we play a Bourke style relay over 2♦ and would pinpoint no chance of a slam early with S showing effectively a semi club stop which N would know from his holding was Qx(x) so the bidding would subside in 3N.

[han]

Paul, it seems like you misread the auction. Responder made a negative double over 1S.

Cyberyeti, I am not sure what you mean by "for this reason". The partnership missed 1 keycard so would have been in 6D regardless.

4H was a splinter, and could have been a singleton for us. By the way, are you suggesting that over the 2S Bourke relay, you can show the semi-stopper in clubs, the spade stopper and the heart void and stop in 3NT? That seems almost impossible to me. If not, what exactly will opener show?

[Phil]

North might have 4♦ over 2♦. When North cannot cue a black suit over 4♥ (or bid 5♣ over 4♠), South has an excellent sense of North's hand type.

Seems like a hard slam to stay out of with this ugly heart duplication.

[paulg]

han, on 2012-August-26, 08:14, said:

Paul, it seems like you misread the auction. Responder made a negative double over 1S.

No, I just don't play it as guaranteeing four hearts when you have a strong hand.

[aguahombre]

Ordinarily it would be a LOL at whom to blame when someone trots out Wood with XX and JXX in two side suits.

This time it is understandable because opener's HCP must be in the blacks. However, perhaps an agreement to use 4S, 4NT, and 5C differently would have allowed the pair to get to the better theoretical result.

Everything up through 4H was just right, IMO. Everything after that is subject to discussion for the future. (LT/DAB/Cues/whatever).

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-August-26, 09:31

[gszes]

deleted garbage failed to take into consideration the 1s overcall

[han]

Phil, on 2012-August-26, 08:28, said:

North might have 4♦ over 2♦. When North cannot cue a black suit over 4♥ (or bid 5♣ over 4♠), South has an excellent sense of North's hand type.

Are you saying that after

1D - (1S) - Dbl
2D

north might bid

.. - 4D
4H - 5D

Sure, that would let you stop short of slam, but do you think that auction does justice to north's hand? Slam is great if south has as little as Axx x xxxxxxx Kxx, and of course south will have quite a bit more than that. Should south be forced to bid slam on your auction anytime he does not miss two top tricks in the black suits?

Imagine south bids 4S over 4D, now what? If you bid 5D, then surely south won't bid 6 on a minimum without a heart control. But if you bid 5C, how would south know when to bid slam?

In short, I think 4D would be a bad bid, and I think the slow route my partner took (2S followed by 3D) is much better. Over 4H he had a guess, but really when you think about how little he needs I think he was right to bid blackwood.

Perhaps I should not have splintered over 3D with spades this much better than clubs. On the other hand, it was (from my point of view) the last opportunity to show the shortness, which could have been the most important feature of my hand.

[benlessard]

Im bidding 4H (void) not 2S. We have a sure D fit and I know partner only got 4H. So 5D & looking for 6 rate to be a good deal vs hands where 3Nt makes and 5D go down.

[han]

paulg, on 2012-August-26, 08:38, said:

No, I just don't play it as guaranteeing four hearts when you have a strong hand.

I don't really see where you are going with these comments about north bidding hearts. South denied 4 hearts with the 2D rebid, at least for me. Why bid hearts instead of bidding your AKJx of diamond support.

[JLOGIC]

I don't like the 4H bid personally. The south hand is not good, I would not want to go past 3N nor would I want to encourage partner and take up a ton of room. I would bid 3S planning to pass 3N.

You have to be careful just splintering around with such a poor hand. Having no keycard in trumps, and no club control, it is not shocking that something like this occurred.

I assume the splinterer was han fwiw

[TWO4BRIDGE]

After the 3D GF ( by North ) agreeing Diam as trump:
South
3H = cue
3S = cue, denying ♥-Ctrl
3NT = unknown
4C = cue, denying ♥- and ♠-Ctrls
4D = Minorwood
4H! = splinter ... would this also deny ♣- and ♠-Ctrls ?

South
1D - (1S) - Dbl
2D - 2S!
2NT - 3D
3H - 4H ( cue, denying ♠- and ♣- Ctrls )
5D

[lalldonn]

Agree with jlogic that I don't like 4♥ much. It has too many flaws, and one of those flaws was lack of club control. How could north know that, especially since he knows his partner did this without the AKJ of diamonds?

[Phil]

han, on 2012-August-26, 09:56, said:

Imagine south bids 4S over 4D, now what? If you bid 5D, then surely south won't bid 6 on a minimum without a heart control. But if you bid 5C, how would south know when to bid slam?

4♦ is a big bid. When we don't show a club control I think South can infer that we have great trump and heart cards.

[Cyberyeti]

han, on 2012-August-26, 08:14, said:

Cyberyeti, I am not sure what you mean by "for this reason". The partnership missed 1 keycard so would have been in 6D regardless.

You might have it slightly easier if you're responding to 4♦ or 4♥ ace asking to stop as we would be rather than 4N. Also at teams, you don't have to bid 6 if you're missing an ace and don't know about the club situation. At pairs you might as well bid 6 if you think 3N might be making overtricks.

Quote

4H was a splinter, and could have been a singleton for us. By the way, are you suggesting that over the 2S Bourke relay, you can show the semi-stopper in clubs, the spade stopper and the heart void and stop in 3NT? That seems almost impossible to me. If not, what exactly will opener show?

We play next suit regardless of whether it's been bid or implied.

1♦-(1♠)-X-2♦-2♥!(relay)-2♠(nat)-3♣(treated as 4th suit, we treat the X as if we'd bid 1♥)-3♦(I want more than Qxx once the lead is pinpointed)-3♥-3N(I nearly have a club stop)-P(we have 2 club losers)

A possible auction if you don't have the relay available and use 4N asking:

1♦-(1♠)-X-2♦-2♠-2N-3♦-3♠-4♥-Houston we have a club control issue-5♦(If you can't get out in 4N)

[JLOGIC]

It is worth noting that often on this type of hand, getting to slam on an unrevealing auction is much better than getting to 5D on a revealing auction. On a really bad day 6D is cold with no bdiding, and 5D is down on a revealing auction (Kx of clubs on lead?!). However once they've overcalled 1S they are very likely to hold the AK of clubs since they don't have anything, so that is not true here. Also, a club ruff is less likely since LHO didn't bid michaels or preempt and is more likely to have 3-4 clubs than usual.

[JLOGIC]

It is worth noting that often on this type of hand, getting to slam on an unrevealing auction is much better than getting to 5D on a revealing auction. On a really bad day 6D is cold with no bdiding, and 5D is down on a revealing auction (Kx of clubs on lead?!). However once they've overcalled 1S they are very likely to hold the AK of clubs since they don't have anything, so that is not true here. Also, a club ruff is less likely since LHO didn't bid michaels or preempt and is more likely to have 3-4 clubs than usual.

[Fluffy]

I hate to force to slam showing void in partner's suit, 4♥ is often a void, I think if north was interested in hearing a heart void he would bid 5♣ rather than 4NT. This has nothing to do with the club control issue though.

[Zelandakh]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-August-26, 10:42, said:

After the 3D GF ( by North ) agreeing Diam as trump:
South
3H = cue
3S = cue, denying ♥-Ctrl
3NT = unknown
4C = cue, denying ♥- and ♠-Ctrls
4D = Minorwood
4H! = splinter ... would this also deny ♣- and ♠-Ctrls ?

If you are able to go into full slam mode after 3♦ then try this:-

3♥ = frivolous (in this case a hand that would decline a slam try)
3♠ = would accept a slam try, no spade control
3NT = to play
4♣ = would accept a slam try, spade control, no club control
4♦ = would accept a slam try, spade control, club control, no heart control
4♥ = would accept a slam try, controls in all side suits, 1 or 4 key cards

Alternatively, if you need the splinters then 3NT can be the heart cue and 4♦ is Minorwood. Naturally, positive cue bids could also be used if preferred. I suspect that 3♦ does not promise a good enough hand to use a structure such as this though.