[rduran1216]

IMPs swiss team against the eventual winners.

nv/nv 3rd chair you hold 8 KJ74 9842 Q1053

Auction

1H 1S 2H p
p x 3H p
p 3S p 4S
x p ?

Your bid?

[nigel_k]

Obvious pass.

[Yu18772]

Pass. I think I told my hand, partner chose to double...let him have fun.
Yu

[the hog]

I think my bidding is very poor and that of the opponents is suspect as well. I would have bid 3H immediately.
As far as the opponents are concerned, we have a simple 1S overcall, a x, the overcaller raises himself to 3S and his partner who has been totally silent up to know, (couldn't even raise to 2S), bids 4. You have got to be kidding me.
I pass.

[CSGibson]

the hog, on 2012-August-03, 00:38, said:

I think my bidding is very poor and that of the opponents is suspect as well. I would have bid 3H immediately.
As far as the opponents are concerned, we have a simple 1S overcall, a x, the overcaller raises himself to 3S and his partner who has been totally silent up to know, (couldn't even raise to 2S), bids 4. You have got to be kidding me.
I pass.

I thought of the preemptive raise as well, but I can't bring myself to criticize the initial decision to bid 2H - you have a hand with much more playing potential than the typical preemptive raise with a stiff in the opponent's suit, 4 card trump to 2 honors, and some potential help in clubs as well with the QT. If there is a 4 card mixed raise available, I would choose that as a perfect description, in my opinion.

Between 2H and 3H preemptive immediately, I would probably bid 2H myself, but could not bring myself to criticize anyone who choses to preempt, it could definitely be a winning action.

On the actual auction, pass is obvious to me - you already showed extra offensive (but not defensive) potential with 3H, probably highlighting the extra heart/short spade. Partner's double is a huge statement, a capable partner is expecting to beat this two or more.

[FrancesHinden]

I don't understand why you think there is a decision here.
I don't bid.

[rduran1216]

I guess I read too much into this situation. Partner didn't make a game try over 2H, partner didn't raise 3H to 4H once I showed my hand. Can partner really have 4 defensive tricks on his own? I have zero defense in my hand, couldn't this double be a request to pull without a trick, and to leave it in with any defense?

[MickyB]

rduran1216, on 2012-August-03, 15:38, said:

I guess I read too much into this situation. Partner didn't make a game try over 2H, partner didn't raise 3H to 4H once I showed my hand. Can partner really have 4 defensive tricks on his own? I have zero defense in my hand, couldn't this double be a request to pull without a trick, and to leave it in with any defense?

You make counting defensive tricks sound very easy. Never mind the ♣Q, the ♣T could be a defensive trick.

As you say, pard didn't make a game-try. He also didn't bid 3H as a blocking effort. Seems unlikely he can hold a hand that wants to save now, he doesn't even know we are 1-4 in the majors - this bidding is more common with 1-3 or 2-4 IMO.

[MickyB]

the hog, on 2012-August-03, 00:38, said:

I would have bid 4H immediately.

[wank]

that you continue to post in the expert section despite 99% of your posts getting replies such as 'wrong forum' suggests you're somewhat deluded.

[phil_20686]

Oh no, I have upvoted the wrong posts, and now have to reply, hence defeating the purpose of upvoting.

The whole auction feels quite ridiculous. When partner pulls out a red one on an auction which feels ridiculous, there is no decision. I would have been pretty happy defending 3S if that had ended the auction, if feels like he has randomly backed his suit at the three level, and his partner probably has no idea what he has shown. It would not at all surprise me to find partner with four good trumps.

I would bid 3H or 4H the first time. I do not understand CSgibson thinking this has `too much playing strength for a preemptive raise'. Four trumps a singleton and a scattering of HCP is routine for a preemptive raise imo. But then again I would seldom preempt without a ruffing value here, when I have seen others raise `preemptively' with 4333 hands.

[Phil]

A mixed raise on the 1st round would be a nice trinket to have here. Either 2N, 3♦ or even 3♥ are commonly played this way. Having said that, 2♥ and 3♥ seem obvious. I have too much playing strength for an initial preemptive raise, and 4♥ is weird with four trump and no great side suit.

Having bid my hand reasonably well initially, we have conveyed a good message to our partner about our relative strength and number of hearts. He knows a lot more about our hand than we do about his.

I don't really hate my hand for defense. The ♣QT are quite useful. Overall the hand is much better than something like x KQJx xxxx xxxx.

Partner's double is not 'consultative'. It is penalty, based on the information we have provided to our partner. We trust our partner more than our opponents, even the 'eventual winners' (that may have gotten a boost here).

What he chooses to do with that data is up to him. Looking at my own hand, I would expect -2.

[rduran1216]

here is the whole hand

---

[lalldonn]

I think the most interesting part of this hand is that north should (clearly?) bid 4♦ over 3♥. I think it's clear even if south could have been 6124 instead.

[quiddity]

Deleted

[wank]

i'm perplexed why pre-emptive raises are so popular in america. if i had the luxury of having 4 jump raises available, e.g. through playing bergen, to cover GF, invitational, mixed and pre-emptive then all well and good, but if i had to sacrifice one, it would assuredly be pre-emptive. How often does it really go 1M (p) to you when you've got 4 trumps and less than 5 points? Mixed raises are much more frequent and if you do get dealt a pre-emptive raise you've always got the option of starting with 1NT which will often work surprisingly well as a pre-empt.

[JLOGIC]

It went 1H 1S. Personally I play 1-3 as mixed (who plays weak after p p 1H p anyways even if you play it after 1H p?) when they don't bid, and weak when they bid.

On this hand I would just bid 4H.

[MickyB]

Phil, on 2012-August-03, 17:39, said:

4♥ is weird with four trump and no great side suit.

3♥ is weird at love all with 1-4 in the majors. There are at least 17 total trumps, usually 18. 1H-1S-3H-3S; AP will often result in teammates proudly calling out "+50" and us saying "lose 3".

[lamford]

I agree with 3H originally. Now I call, but don't bid.

[CSGibson]

phil_20686, on 2012-August-03, 16:59, said:

I do not understand CSgibson thinking this has `too much playing strength for a preemptive raise'.

If you are quoting me, at least quote me accurately. I did not say that it has too much strength for a preemptive raise, I said it is stronger than a typical preemptive raise. What I meant by that, and my subsequent fence-sitting, is that I felt that this is bordering on the max of a preemptive raise. Reading the rest of it, I don't particularly object to anyone who does bid 3H, I just don't think there's a clear "right" bid here - a lot of things can work out fairly well against different ops, with different partners, depending on table feel...