[TylerE]

---

[CSGibson]

both?

N should probably bid 3♠ on his 2nd turn, south needs to give this one more go - and I really don't like the 2nd double, just cue-bid like a human being with 4 card support for partner's suit.

[mgoetze]

Let's see, North/South made 5 calls and I agree with, uhm, 1 of them. 80% North, 200% South.

[nigel_k]

North 75%.

I wouldn't have bid the way South did, but North was on another planet and would have missed a cold game opposite as little as Axxx AQx xx xxxx.

[aguahombre]

CSGibson, on 2012-June-03, 14:35, said:

both?

N should probably bid 3♠ on his 2nd turn, south needs to give this one more go - and I really don't like the 2nd double, just cue-bid like a human being with 4 card support for partner's suit.

I always lean toward the first call which starts the derailing, the torture, etc. This is no exception. North's hand is huge opposite what South's second double should have looked like. But, if North jumped to 3S for instance, there is still a chance for N/S to end up in the wrong strain and level. I disagree that a cue after doubling shows 4-card support. With 4-card support, it seems reasonable to show that support by raising the suit to an appropriate level; 3H would suggest we want to be in game opposite a bit more than a yarb. Then North could cue clubs and continue to slam.

OTOH, a 2h advance of the first double would have worked well also, and would have been quite appropriate with all that offensive power. The double was of 1D. Normally we would expect pard to be short there and bidding only 1H might actually be equally as bad as the second double.

[Codo]

North:
1. In the european style Norths hand is too strong for just 1 Heart, but maybe even in the american style it was an underbid...
2. To rebid 2 Heart was a crime.

South:
1. The second double wanted north do do what? I do have a fit, even if partner had been forced to rebid a three car suit.

So t is 100% to 20 % or so...

[Fluffy]

2♥ 70% of the blame its really ridicoulous
1♥ 25% it is a very awful bid, 4♥ is obvious IMO, but compared to 2♥ its a wc option
second double 5% double is not perfect, but at least its something a sane mind can think of as an alternative.


A proffesional polish player came to spain some 25 years ago, before he started to play with sponsors he though 260 and 270 were some sort of partscores doubled with overtrick.

[mgoetze]

Gonzalo, you forgot South's second pass. I mean South expressed doubt about playing in hearts, North said "no no, that's fine, I have 5 of them" and South still doesn't think he has at least an invite? Or are you saying the 2nd double already showed 20+ points?

[Fluffy]

if you make a second double is because you think your hand fits with a 17-20 hand with 3 card support wich IMO it is what second double shows. So passing 2♥ wich could actually be just 4 cards or even 3 (pretty rare) seems consistent.

the typical second double is a 4333 or 4324 hand. North´s 2♥ can be anything with 4♥ 4♦

[sfi]

mgoetze, on 2012-June-04, 05:53, said:

Gonzalo, you forgot South's second pass. I mean South expressed doubt about playing in hearts, North said "no no, that's fine, I have 5 of them" and South still doesn't think he has at least an invite? Or are you saying the 2nd double already showed 20+ points?

Why does 2♥ show 5 of them? What do you bid with 3-4 or 2-4 in the majors and a 0 count? Given that North is now showing a minimum hand, game is a long way off and 3♥ could easily go down. Bidding again with 6 potential losers looks like very poor odds.

100% blame to North, despite South's strange second double.

[mgoetze]

sfi, on 2012-June-04, 06:16, said:

Why does 2♥ show 5 of them? What do you bid with 3-4 or 2-4 in the majors and a 0 count?

Well if I have 2-4 in the majors I have 7 cards in the minors. So either I have 3+ clubs, and I can pass, since partner also showed some clubs, or I have 5+ diamonds, in which case I can bid 2♦. Yeah I suppose I could be 3442, that would suck. But I think most of the time 2♥ should show 5+.

[lowerline]

TylerE, on 2012-June-03, 14:28, said:

---

With the North hand I would have bid 4♥ at first turn. Bidding only 2♥ at second turn is... <censored>

I agree with South's first double, but I don't understand the second double. 3♦ seems more appropriate (a hand too strong for an immediate raise to 4♥). South's pass on 2♥ is... <censored>

Very bad bidding. Only the first double was right...

Steven

[billw55]

I think 2♥ at north's first turn is obvious, and the 2♥ rebid is awful. South's second double is weird, but I wonder what action could have motivated this north to do something other than sign off as if he holds a bust.

Just this weekend in the worldwide pairs, I got -240 defending 2NT+4. One op passed out 2NT in a 2/1 sequence. I was expecting a free top, alas when I opened the traveler everyone was in 3NT down one. It was played the other way but we still couldn't figure out how it went down.

[neilkaz]

Was North suffering from HCPitis? His hand has much more playing strength than his feeble bidding indicated.

[EricK]

North's hand is closer to an immediate GF than the sub-minimum response he showed.

[ArtK78]

North's auction is consistent with the following hand:

xxx xxxxx xxx xx

I don't know what South was trying to convey with his double of 2♣, so I can't exactly provide an example hand. Of course, with his actual hand, he should have bid more than he did, as game is possible opposite the hand that I gave as an example hand that is consistent with North's auction if you add the Q of spades.

Certainly, North drastically underbid his cards, but South also significantly underbid his cards as well.

[kayin801]

North and South, what you've just done is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever seen. At no point in your rambling, incoherent auction were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having seen it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I don't agree with the 1♥ call or the final pass but I can live with them. 2♥ and the second X are beyond words.

[benlessard]

IMO Its important to see that after

(1D)--X--(P)--1H
(2C)--??

You need a bid to show a flexible hand (great hand without clear direction) over wich partner will bid 2S when hes broke with 4S/4H (even with a 3343) or 2nt with little pts & a D stopper. We also need one bid for 2 and a half H bid. I find it dumb when I bid 3H and go down 1 even if trumps split well and the K of D is well placed. IMO being able to INV and stay at 2H is simply a must here. These hands are a lot more frequent than true GF hands with 5S/3H for example. Without discussion I would assume that 2D is showing 4H and X 2 clubs is showing a flexible hand but maybe south saw it the other way around.

I strongly disagree with those who think 2H is showing 5H, what would you do with a broke 3442,2452,3433 ???

So 99% north and 1% south and congrats for having the courage to post such a disaster.

[Fluffy]

benlessard, on 2012-June-06, 07:34, said:

You need a bid to show a flexible hand (great hand without clear direction) over wich partner will bid 2S when hes broke with 4S/4H

Partner has denied having 4-4 majors when he bid 1♥. Up the line with 4-4 principle doesn't apply when responding to a take out double, mainly because it is not forcing, so partner won't bid 1♠ with 4 of them. Instead the 5-5 principle of bidding first highest to be able to offer lowest later and let partner accept any at the same level does apply.

[benlessard]

Fluffy, on 2012-June-06, 07:54, said:

Partner has denied having 4-4 majors when he bid 1♥. Up the line with 4-4 principle doesn't apply when responding to a take out double, mainly because it is not forcing, so partner won't bid 1♠ with 4 of them. Instead the 5-5 principle of bidding first highest to be able to offer lowest later and let partner accept any at the same level does apply.

With some values you can bid 1S planning to bid 2H later. However if your weak its standard to bid up the line when your 4/4 or 3/3.

AFAIK There is 3 reasons for that

1 - you are planning to raise if partner got a good M overcall in the suit you didnt bid.

(1D)--X--(P)--1H
(P)--1S--(P)--2S

(1D)--X--(P)--1S
(P)--2H--(P)--3H

with 4 trumps and 3-4 pts its easier to raise 1S to 2S than 2H to 3H.

2- its a way to show pts or a 5th spades

(1D)--X--(P)--1S
(2D)--X--(P)--2H ; in up the line methods 2H here show 5S+4H or 4S+4H & some pts. In your method it show nothing in particular.

(1D)--X--(P)--1H
(2D)--X--(P)--2S ; in up the line methods 2S here show 4S+4H & no pts. In you method it show 5H+4S with or without pts.


3 - If they double, you can pull 1H to 1S.

Its possible they play different elsewhere but in Canada this is pretty standard among experts.