[fuburules3]

Assume your partner is a solid player, but you have no agreements except that you are playing a rather straightforward 2/1 card.

In each of the following sequences, what sort of hand does responder have? What do opener's various continuations mean and what are his priorities/obligations?

Sequence #1
1D-P-1S-P
2NT-P-3S-P
?

Sequence #2
1D-P-1S-P
2NT-P-3C-P
3H-P-3S-P
?

Sequence #3
1D-P-1S-P
2NT-P-3C-P
3H-P-4S-P
?

Sequence #4
1D-P-1S-P
2NT-P-3C-P
3H-P-4C-P
?

Sequence #5
1D-P-1S-P
2NT-P-3C-P
3S-P-4C-P
?

Assume 3C is NMF. In my world, without further discussion any bid over 2NT is forcing, but not all of my regular partners I asked agreed.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Playing your methods ( NMF and only NF bid/2NT is "pass" ) :
#1 ... 3S = extra length ( 6+ )

#2 ... 3H = 4 cards; does not deny 3 cards Sp
........... 3S next by Responder = cue for Hts as trump whereas
........... 3NT instead by Responder would deny 4 cards Hts, but still have 5 cards Sp since 3C ( NMF ) was bid initially.

#3 ... 4S = to play ( fast arrival )

#4 ... 4C = advance cue for Hts as trump ( have 5+s and 4h )

#5 ... 4C = advance cue for Sp as trump

[FrancesHinden]

I don't understand how/why you would both agree to play NMF and to play every bid as forcing, and not agree anything else. This seems like a sort of 'let's agree to play half a convention'.
So I can't answer any of your questions, I've honestly got no idea.

In one partnership we simply play all continuations as natural and forcing. That lets you bid 3C to show clubs. I don't see what you are gaining by playing 3C as an artificial ask but not doing anything else.
(In the most regular partnership 2NT is artificial)

[Zelandakh]

Without any agreements other than nmf I would think:

1. Responder wants to play 3S. If you have the additional agreement that this is also forcing then it just shows a 6th spade.
2. Responder is offering cog between 3NT and 4S, or wants to explore for slam. Don's method is playable but it would be wrong to assume this without agreements imho.
3. I would take this as a mild slam try with 6+ spades. With agreement it is also reasonable to play it as RKCB agreeing hearts.
4. A cue agreeing hearts.
5. A cue agreeing spades.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

@ Frances :

One plays NMF to distinguish between various Sp/Ht holdings as well as just showing 5 cards of the bid Major:

1m - 1S
2NT( 18,19) - 3om! ( 5 cards Sp; may have 4 cards Hts )

whereas:
1m - 1S
2NT - 3H = 5/5

- - - - - - - - -
1m - 1H
2NT - 3om! = 5 cards Hts; may have 4 cards Sp

whereas:
1m - 1H
2NT - 3S = 4/4

- - - - - - - - - -
And with OP's "forcing" criteria, this allows the rebid of the Major to show extra length :
1m - 1M
2NT - 3M = 6+ cards

- - - - - - - - - -
Personally, I rather play the Wolff Relay ( which incorporates the Wolff sign-off ) rather than NMF.
3C! is ALWAYS the "ask" , which allows the 3D rebid by Responder to be natural, forcing.
But that is a subject for another time.

[awm]

There are definitely reasons to play this way; for example here 3♠ shows a six card suit and asks cuebids (five-card spades bids NMF) whereas if "everything is forcing and natural" you have to bid 3♠ on some five-card suits. Similarly 3♥ by responder can show 5/5 (5/4 would bid NMF) which can help there too. Not obvious it's "better" than methods which allow you to sign off over 2NT of course (but this will depend a lot on what sorts of hands you pass the opening with, and what sorts of hands you bid 2NT with).

Anyway, for the given sequences:

(1) 6+♠, asks for a cuebid. In principle 3NT by opener shows a really lousy hand (in context) for spade slam and would be NF.
(2) 5+♠, too strong for 3NT (which shows five spades, but is very NF). If 6♠, only interested in slam opposite 3+ support (i.e. a lousy spade suit).
(3) To play; don't really understand the NMF bid here but jumps to game in a forcing auction opposite a limited hand are to play.
(4) 4♠ and 5+♣, slam interest. Presumably something in the 10-11 point range with shape (if stronger, 1♦-2♣ would be the start). Note 5♠/5♣ can rebid 3♠ here.
(5) 4♠ and 5+♣, slam interest. Four of a red suit would be a very clear cuebid but it's not clear how to bid this type of pattern if 4♣ is a cue here.

[straube]

Transfers...

3C-3D
.....P-to play
.....3H-slam try with 6 of major
.....3S-game or slam interest in diamonds
.....3N-5M, demands preference to 4M with 3-cd support

3S-game or slam interest in clubs

1m-1H, 2N
.....3D-forces 3H
..........P-to play
..........3S-4S/5H
..........3N-choice of games
.....3H-4S/4H

1m-1S, 2N
.....3D-5S/4+H
.....3H-forces 3S
..........P-to play
.........3N-choice of games

I'm a little fuzzy on the 1m-1S, 2N-3D sequence. There is room there to work out 5M/5M assuming 3D precipitates a GF.

[FrancesHinden]

I am aware that there are advantages to having a conventional bid after a 2NT rebid. The point I was trying to make is that, given the choice of agreeing with a partner only that:
(i) all bids are natural and forcing
or
(ii) We play NMF

Then you are now in a worse position having agreed (ii) because you don't actually know if, say, 3S is forcing or not; and you don't know how to bid the new minor naturally, and you haven't taken advantage of any of the extra sequences you should have gained because you don't know what any of them mean.

Take these sequences as an example. There seems to be no way to show a slam try with 4 spades and 4 clubs - is there some reason we can't have a 4-4 club fit? {If you open 1C with 4-4 in the minors, then switch the sequences round to a 1C-1S-2NT-3D}, or to distinguish 5/4 blacks with 4/4 blacks or 4/5 blacks.

While if you are in a serious partnership and want to come up with a good method after a 2NT rebid, I doubt you'd start with nmf - you'd play transfers, or Wollf relay/sign-off (or an adaptation of it) or something else (our 'everything natural and forcing' agreement still had about two pages in the system file to distinguish how to agree various suits, what sequences showed a canape etc, it's not an easy option if you want to take full advantage of the possible auctions).

If you really want to analyse these sequences you have to agree what opener does with 3-4 in the majors. You have to agree what a 4-level jump by responder means (e.g. you could play 1D-1S-2NT-4C as a black suit canape, which removes that as a possible hand type from the 3C bid; what does 1D-1S-2NT-4D mean? 4H?)

One possible approach is to agree that opener always bids hearts first, in which case

1. game forcing with 6 spades

after 1D-1S-2NT-3C-3H:
- 3S agrees hearts
- 3NT is COG with 5 spades
- 4m is natural
- 4H to play in 4H
- 4S mild slam try with spades
- 4NT natural with 5 spades

after 1D-1S-2NT-3C-3S:
- 4m natural, only 4 spades
- 4H agrees spades

this all seems to work, but now you'd better start on the 1D-1H-2NT-3C auctions, because the inferences are completely different... do you want opener to show 3-card heart support before 4 spades? If so you've given up on one advantage of nmf which is getting the strong hand to declare your 4-4 spade fit.

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-December-31, 11:39, said:

this all seems to work, but now you'd better start on the 1D-1H-2NT-3C auctions, because the inferences are completely different... do you want opener to show 3-card heart support before 4 spades? If so you've given up on one advantage of nmf which is getting the strong hand to declare your 4-4 spade fit.

No you haven't:
- 3S is either COG with 5 hearts, or a slam try with hearts agreed
- 3NT shows 4-4 in the majors

[FrancesHinden]

What if you've got a slam try with 4-4 majors? A slam force with 4-4 majors?

(One simple answer is that 1D-1H-2NT-3S is 4-4 majors slam interest, when right-siding isn't an issue. Or 1D-1H-2NT-3S is hearts and clubs slam interest, allowing 4C over 3H to agree hearts)

[straube]

I'm not understanding why you're trying to focus discussion on two bad alternatives...natural and forcing vs nmf. Natural and forcing would be better for game/slam hands and nmf would be better for part scores, but transfers are better than either. Even a simple transfer system....

3C-shows diamonds
3D-shows hearts
3H-shows spades
3S-shows clubs

is better than either of these two and requires no memory work.

When partner is balanced, you want to describe your hand instead of ask about his.

[ArtK78]

Without getting into too much detail, I have always played that any bid over 2NT is game forcing, and I use NMF as well.

There are many ways to get out over 2NT (Wolff signoff, Flint, etc.), but I and many other players choose to either pass 2NT or force to game. The choice to use NMF over the 2NT rebid is independent from that decision.

I don't say that this method is necessarily the best method. But it is a reasonable method.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2011-December-31, 13:43, said:

Without getting into too much detail, I have always played that any bid over 2NT is game forcing, and I use NMF as well.

There are many ways to get out over 2NT (Wolff signoff, Flint, etc.), but I and many other players choose to either pass 2NT or force to game. The choice to use NMF over the 2NT rebid is independent from that decision.

I don't say that this method is necessarily the best method. But it is a reasonable method.

And on the 1m-1H-2NT auction, it also kind of depends on opener rebidding 1S with 18-19 balanced to eliminate responder's concerns if she has 4-4 majors, and get that possibility out of the follow-ups.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Regarding concerns for Responder holding Clubs and a Major ( Frances ),
when playing Wolff, the "NT" rebids will show Clubs as the side suit .
The 3C! rebid indicates one of 3 hands for Responder:

5/4 in the majors
OR the bid Major and Clubs
OR a sign-off in the Major

[And a rebid of the Major ( over 2NT ) shows 5+ cards, GF and no side suit ].

For example:
1C - 1S
2NT - 3C! ( always asks for 4 cards Hts )
3D! ( denies 4h) - ??
....................3H = 5s/4h, GF
....................3S = to play ( sign-off )
....................3NT = 4s/4+c ( 10-12 hcp ); only 4s since with 5s, Responder would have rebid 3S directly over 2NT
....................4NT = 4s/4+c ( 13-15 hcp ); ditto

[FrancesHinden]

straube, on 2011-December-31, 12:32, said:

I'm not understanding why you're trying to focus discussion on two bad alternatives...natural and forcing vs nmf. Natural and forcing would be better for game/slam hands and nmf would be better for part scores, but transfers are better than either. Even a simple transfer system....

3C-shows diamonds
3D-shows hearts
3H-shows spades
3S-shows clubs

is better than either of these two and requires no memory work.

When partner is balanced, you want to describe your hand instead of ask about his.

I wasn't. I have already said that

Quote

if you are in a serious partnership and want to come up with a good method after a 2NT rebid....you'd play transfers, or Wollf relay/sign-off (or an adaptation of it) or something else

The point I was making, which obviously didn't sink in, so I'll make it again, is that if you have the choice between (i) agreeing not to play a convention but simply making everything natural and forcing, and (ii) agreeing a convention but not discussing it any further, you are better off with (i).

The same is true of your 'simple transfer system'. I would far rather agree 'natural and forcing' than do no more than agree your suggestion, because then there a loads more questions:
- are these bids game forcing, or can responder be signing off?
- if they are game forcing, on what hands does opener break?
- if they are unbreakable, what does transferring to diamonds then bidding the major mean, compared to transferring to the major and then bidding the minor?
- what are 4-level jumps?
- if responder transfers to hearts, does completion show 4 hearts? or should it show exactly 3 hearts, to allow responder to get to the right game with 5-5 majors?
- if opener is forced to compete, how does responder show a single-suited slam try if transferring and bidding a minor is natural? If it's a cue, then how does responder show a 5-5 or 5-4 slam try?
(I could keep going....)

[FrancesHinden]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-December-31, 21:27, said:

Regarding concerns for Responder holding Clubs and a Major ( Frances ),
when playing Wolff, the "NT" rebids will show Clubs as the side suit .
The 3C! rebid indicates one of 3 hands for Responder:

5/4 in the majors
OR the bid Major and Clubs
OR a sign-off in the Major

[And a rebid of the Major ( over 2NT ) shows 5+ cards, GF and no side suit ].

For example:
1C - 1S
2NT - 3C! ( always asks for 4 cards Hts )
3D! ( denies 4h) - ??
....................3H = 5s/4h, GF
....................3S = to play ( sign-off )
....................3NT = 4s/4+c ( 10-12 hcp ); only 4s since with 5s, Responder would have rebid 3S directly over 2NT
....................4NT = 4s/4+c ( 13-15 hcp ); ditto

The original question was about responder having the other minor + their major when playing nmf, not about how to bid when playing a different convention.

Oddly, your explanation of Wolff sign-off is completely different to the way I used to play it. In particular, it seems to lose out many of the advantages of the method. In your version, if opener has denied 4 hearts, what's the point of responder bidding hearts? The way I was taught it was

1m-1S-2NT-
3C forces 3D, which responder can pass or convert to 3M non-forcing (hence the name of the convention, allowing you to sign off in 3D), or bid 3NT or higher to show a slam try with partner's suit
3D = checkback
3H = slam try with the other minor
3S = 6-card suit
4C/D/H = auto-splinter

[fuburules3]

Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. I understand that the methods I suggested are not ideal, but I was curious what the sequences mean to most people if you are playing with a new partner and have not had time to discuss (if you are playing so called "expert standard"). FWIW, these are the methods recommended by Hardy in his books, which I tend to use as a baseline if I have nothing else to go on (my interpretation of these sequences is basically the same as AWM's).

In the hand that inspired my post, you are opener and see sequence #3 and have to figure out what responder is trying to show. My thoughts are responder must have 6+ spades to insist on spades and must have some slam interest in slam to not bid 4S directly. Since responder has bid in such a way that you are not able to make a cue, he must be worried about trump quality. Thoughts?