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To be or not to be ?

#1 User is offline   Tataie 

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Posted 2011-July-04, 18:23


Pass , 4♠ or anything else ?
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#2 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2011-July-04, 18:39

4♠

 wyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the ♥3.


 rbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#3 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2011-July-04, 18:45

I'd pass, i wld not blame anyone bidding game at imps though. Scoring wasnt mentioned.
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#4 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2011-July-04, 19:17


Tataie asked
Pass , 4♠ or anything else ?

IMO...
4♠ = 10, Pass = 6.
Partner is likely to have five spades because he bid neither red suit and did not convert to penalties.

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#5 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-July-04, 19:55

Well, give pard a moderately bad hand like

Kxxxx
xxx
xxx
xx

and game has chances. I'd bid it then. Can be very wrong though.
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#6 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-July-04, 21:12

View PostMrAce, on 2011-July-04, 18:45, said:

I'd pass, i wld not blame anyone bidding game at imps though. Scoring wasnt mentioned.

Agree with pass...and disagree with not blaming anyone who bid 4. IMO opener has done a good job of describing his hand's potential, and to bid 4 is anti-partnership. Others might have doubled with less offensive strength and be uncomfortable trusting pard.
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#7 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2011-July-05, 01:22

View Postaguahombre, on 2011-July-04, 21:12, said:

Agree with pass...and disagree with not blaming anyone who bid 4. IMO opener has done a good job of describing his hand's potential, and to bid 4 is anti-partnership. Others might have doubled with less offensive strength and be uncomfortable trusting pard.


I agree with this. I might bid 4 at Imps.

"Partner is likely to have five spades because he bid neither red suit and did not convert to penalties."
Sorry Nigel, but the above comment is really funny. Why would pd convert to penalties with a pile of rubbish? Why can't pd have a 4324 hand?
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#8 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-July-05, 01:39

It wouldn't occur to me to raise with this. How much less can I have for a double of 3♣ at this vulnerability?

Quote

Kxxxx
xxx
xxx
xx

It seems unlikely that the opponents have subsided at the three level with 11 clubs and 21 HCP, including all the honours in their trump suit. Partner's most likely shape is 4324. If he has something like Kxxx xxx xx Qxxx, he'll be struggling to make 3♠.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#9 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2011-July-05, 02:47

Quickly bid 4♠, opps will sacrifice with 5♣ which will earn more than +140. ;)
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Posted 2011-July-05, 02:50

View Postwhereagles, on 2011-July-04, 19:55, said:

Well, give pard a moderately bad hand like

Kxxxx
xxx
xxx
xx

and game has chances. I'd bid it then. Can be very wrong though.


They have 21 points and 11 clubs, and they stop at 3C?
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#11 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2011-July-05, 05:17

View Postgnasher, on 2011-July-05, 01:39, said:

1. Kxxxx xxx xxx xx It seems unlikely that the opponents have subsided at the three level with 11 clubs and 21 HCP, including all the honours in their trump suit.

2. Partner's most likely shape is 4324. If he has something like Kxxx xxx xx Qxxx, he'll be struggling to make 3♠.


1. Well, make it 5323 then.

2. Got any sim data?
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2011-July-05, 06:32

View Postwhereagles, on 2011-July-05, 05:17, said:

2. Got any sim data?

No, but I don't need any. If I did a simulation, one of the conditions would be that EW have fewer than ten clubs between them. That would make partner's likely shapes 4324, 5314 and 5224. Outside our hand there are 9 spades, 9 hearts and 8 diamonds. Without doing any arithmetic, it seems obvious that a 432 shape is more likely than a 531 or 522.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#13 User is offline   dake50 

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Posted 2011-July-05, 06:33

Q's under the opener, Diamonds not tricks, bad.
Partner had a chance to 4S, he didn't, bad.
My good trumps need to ruff clubs, bad.
We got to our best scoring partial, good.
Leave this one in 3S.
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#14 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2011-July-05, 07:50

The risk/reward ratio is right(i.e. you are V) so take a shot. It would be a harder to justify if you were NV.
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#15 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2011-July-05, 09:44

Pass.

Trust your partner. He would've bid 4♠ the majority of the times it's the right contract.
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#16 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2011-July-06, 07:23

View Postthe hog, on 2011-July-05, 01:22, said:

"Partner is likely to have five spades because he bid neither red suit and did not convert to penalties." Sorry Nigel, but the above comment is really funny.
Why would pd convert to penalties with a pile of rubbish? Why can't pd have a 4324 hand?
Hilarious. :) It's the way I tell 'em. :)
I'm assuming that your double doesn't promise four cards in both majors. I wrote "likely" not "certain". I stick by that opinion. I concede that partner's hand-shape could be 4324. But, IMO, partner will pass with some of those hands. And there seem to be more possible shapes for partner that include at least five spades.

View Postgnasher, on 2011-July-05, 06:32, said:

No, but I don't need any [simulations]. If I did a simulation, one of the conditions would be that EW have fewer than ten clubs between them. That would make partner's likely shapes 4324, 5314 and 5224. Outside our hand there are 9 spades, 9 hearts and 8 diamonds. Without doing any arithmetic, it seems obvious that a 432 shape is more likely than a 531 or 522.
IMO, when speculating or performing simulations, you should trust partner's calls but you should place less reliance on assumptions about unknown opponents. For example, at teams, some opponents may decide to delay sacrificing, until you actually bid your vulnerable game.
I agree with Pooltuna that the problem would be harder if you were not-vulnerable or playing match-pointed pairs.
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#17 User is offline   Tataie 

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Posted 2011-July-06, 08:05

The real deal


Result 4♣x -2 = -8IMP

There was also an opened thread for W bid after x
http://www.bridgebas...6636-your-call/
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#18 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2011-July-06, 08:49

Interesting. West had two earlier chances to do the right thing, and then was given a third by the opponents. All the comments about trusting partner after describing apparently don't apply to this partner.
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#19 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2011-July-06, 10:28

View Post2200, on 2011-July-05, 02:50, said:

They have 21 points and 11 clubs, and they stop at 3C?

LOL

Anyway, I pass 3♠, I'm not going to field partner's misbids, and 4♠ doesn't rate to play that great if partner only has 4♠: Club lead taps dummy, and partner still needs to set up the diamond suit and maintain control. When partner has 5♠, they should have a fairly bad hand... If they have the perfect hand, oh well.
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#20 User is offline   mfa1010 

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Posted 2011-July-06, 11:25

4♠, surely. Any hand with five spades gives some play. Our hand is huge with 1st round controls in all suits and strong trumps.
Plus what Nigel said.

On the other hand I don't see doubling 4♣ with a void. Are we playing partner for a little something or not? Why shoot for +100 when we could easily concede a doubled partscore? If it was meant as an "action double", it is better to just bid 4♠ with four of them and a void in their suit. Double should instead inply a strong 3451 or something similar.
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