[mike777]

What I find on bbo is that opp cannot or will not explain Multi on bbo.

They kick you off when you ask.

They kick you off when you ask about 2d
\
They kick you off when you ask about response


----------------


FWIW


i CAN UNDERSTAND BANNING MULTI if opp keep on refusing explaning what 2d is and the responses in full.

[Free]

-> general BBO discussion

Multi

[mike777]

lol


so I need to go to the forum to understand my opp alerts or in this case nonalerts ?

[helene_t]

If you play vs randoms in the main room, or in non-GCC tournaments, I think it is worthwhile reading a bit about multi as it is a very common convention and some opps don't have sufficient English skills to explain what it means.

No need to ban multi. If you don't like guessing which defense against multi you play with a pick-up partner, you can announce in your table rules (if you are host) that you will discuss it on the fly if it comes up. Then opps can leave if they don't like those conditions.

Of course, if someone opens a 2♦ without alert or pre-alert and they turn out to have a partnership understanding to play multi, call the director (in a tournament) or tell opps to alert in the future (in the main room or a team match). Also, if failure to alert leads to a silly contract in the main room, you can ask for a redeal.

[kenberg]

Mike,

Have you not yet noticed that some players say that they play X when they have at best a casual acquaintance with what that means? Of course they should still tell you what multi, or any X convention, means to them, but this is a problem that is not unique to the multi. In some cases they could easily get around a ban on the multi by just renaming it the addi, since what they play really isn't the multi anyway.

I have a pretty casual approach to online bridge. Of course I sometimes arrange games where I expect better. If you have the time and patience to choose your opponents, the sort of nonsense you speak of can be avoided. When I just log on and play, I pour a glass of wine and relax. And I hear my partners now saying that the glass of wine explains much about my play.

[Free]

 mike777, on 2011-June-11, 02:04, said:

lol

so I need to go to the forum to understand my opp alerts or in this case nonalerts ?

Mike, I understand your frustration, obviously the situation is not like it should be. But please also look at it from another angle and try to understand your opponents' view. Multi is very popular and well known all over Europe, so asking what Multi means is for some people (=some Europeans) similar to asking what Stayman means. Not everyone realizes that this isn't popular or widespread in the USA or some other parts of the world, so they probably think you're from outer space.

My advice: learn what multi is, how it works, and basically solve your side of the problem. Trying to re-educate all your opponents will be much more work...

[1eyedjack]

 Free, on 2011-June-11, 01:51, said:

-> general BBO discussion

Multi

There are several common variations of hand types that can be contained in "the multi" and still be described as such. Indeed the first sentence in the linked explanation states that "partnership agreements may vary"

I know of several partnerships who include a strong 2 in a minor, which is not even included as one of the options in that list.

I have sympathy for the OP because I also have been a victim of this treatment, But then again the same applies to just about any convention used by any member of BBO in the main clubs. If you play in a proper tourney, properly run, then some control is applied (in some cases it is indeed banned).

I don't think that generally banning it is the right move. There are a lot of players who use it and do explain it properly, and to be frank you should expect to have to, if playing these methods. I don't have sympathy with those who regard it as onerous

Anyway, as I downvoted the quoted post I thought it courteous to explain why.

[Zelandakh]

"Multi" as a description on BBO is quite meaningless as there are many different versions. In my local club "multi" means a weak 2 in hearts (but not spades) or some strong types, and the responses are also quite different from what one might expect in another area. I play mini-multi by choice - I would never explain it as such but always give the possible hand types. The same for multi with 1 or more strong variants. This is no different from opening a strong 1C (mine is 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any, NOT 16+ any or 16+ unbal/17+bal) or a nebulous 1D (is it 2+, 1+ or 0+?). Full disclosure applies to any method, even SAYC if you are playing opps who are unfamiliar with it - try getting Americans to explain SAYC bids sometime!. Banning a method because of players who think an incomplete explanation is "obvious" and therefore nothing further is required is not the correct solution here.

[bluecalm]

For some people "multi" in their pet variation is so natural that they can't imagine someone not knowing what it is.
Just assume it's weak two in either major and bid accordingly. I would also be annoyed if someone keeps asking about meaning of stayman, transfer or weak two opener in online play even though there 100's variations of those and they are entitled to know which kind we are using.
If I play vs someone who don't know what multi is then well, I would also prefer to play vs someone else because there is a lot of correlation between level of play and knowing what multi is and how to defend vs it.

I remember that when I started playing bridge I kept asking about "better minor" as it was (and still is) so bizarre convention to me that I wanted people to explain what exactly they do with various minor suit configurations, as most of them didn't ever think about it they were annoyed by my questions.
One other example is "polish club". When I explain my 1C opener ar "polish club" I expect my opponent to know what it is. It's very popular system and they could frankly google it instead of clicking my bid and make me write the lengthy explanations . I know they are either very weak players, morons or just people who seek ways to annoy me so I am instantly unhappy as I don't want to be in online game with neither of those types.

[Zelandakh]

Blue, seriously is it so difficult to keep in clipboard "12-14bal, 15-17!Cs, or 18+ any"? or even just to use a minimal FD that has this description in it. It is a popular system regionally but there are also alot of places where it is almost unheard of, or even banned. If you are playing against expertsd then I would agree, but against randoms in MBC you owe them a fuller explanation imho.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I would agree, but against randoms in MBC you owe them a fuller explanation imho.

Yeah, I always give full explanations when asked. I also know that if they keep asking they are weak players. Nothing wrong with it. I don't like to play vs weak players online because it's not enjoyable for me. Sometimes unfortunately when there are no other games available I play in "expert teammatches" where people fancying themselves as experts still don't know what multi or polish club is. I get annoyed then, but still give explanations, what else could I do

Of course If I played in random game in main room I wouldn't even use words like "multi" or "polish club" expecting full well that 99% of players there are recreational types who treat the game as pure hobby and never were serious about it. That's fine of course but then again that's the reason I don't play in random main room games

Quote

"12-14bal, 15-17!Cs, or 18+ any"?

It's not only about 1♣ opener they keep asking about every follow up like 1♣ - 1♥ even though they are not alerted. I mean, polish club is natural system with few gadgets, if you play a lot online and have advanced+ in your profile you should really feel some obligation to educate yourself about the most common systems and conventions in use.

[kenberg]

 bluecalm, on 2011-June-12, 05:32, said:

For some people "multi" in their pet variation is so natural that they can't imagine someone not knowing what it is.
Just assume it's weak two in either major and bid accordingly.

Surely this is a little too quick, and perhaps goes to the heart of the grumbling about the multi and other conventions.

Players sometimes complain that they do not understand the meaning of multi bids. True to some extent, but if they thought about it a little more, I think they might conclude that the real problem lies in not understanding their own bids. My rho opponent opens 2♦(multi) and I double. Can I expect my partner to know what I have in mind? Or (2♦)-pass-2♠-? I guess third hand has some hearts, probably more hearts than spades, but this may not be immediately obvious. At any rate, X by fourth hand, undiscussed, means what?

I have no objection at all to playing against the multi, but the fact is that it illustrates a border. A pair of even very good players cannot really compete effectively against the multi unless they have prepared some for it. Consider a casual partnership: A standard weak 2♥ on my right, I double. Every partner in the world understands that this is for take-out. We may or may not know what a response of 2NT to my double means, but we know the double is for take-out. But multi 2♦ on my right and I double? There are many defenses against the multi and partner and I need to be playing the same one. Some players do not wish to go into such detail with anyone, others may do it with some partners but may sometimes play in games with partners where this has not been discussed. I fall into this latter category. I am fine with just taking my lumps if I am playing casually and cannot cope effectively. That's what playing casually means.

Anyway, I think the main problem with playing against the multi is not that we cannot figure out what their bids mean but rather that, absent preparation, we don't know what our bids mean. This applies to other conventions as well. There is of course substantial literature on the multi so this can be coped with, given the will to do so.

[Gerardo]

 bluecalm, on 2011-June-12, 06:10, said:

It's not only about 1♣ opener they keep asking about every follow up like 1♣ - 1♥ even though they are not alerted. I mean, polish club is natural system with few gadgets, if you play a lot online and have advanced+ in your profile you should really feel some obligation to educate yourself about the most common systems and conventions in use.

Rightfully so, blue, when they don't know.

Would you alert 1♣ : 1♥ : 4♥, for example? Also, they would like to know how the opener further bids clarify his hand, and they are entitled to, no matter what level they think they are.

[babalu1997]

 bluecalm, on 2011-June-12, 06:10, said:

Yeah, I always give full explanations when asked. I also know that if they keep asking they are weak players. Nothing wrong with it. I don't like to play vs weak players online because it's not enjoyable for me. Sometimes unfortunately when there are no other games available I play in "expert teammatches" where people fancying themselves as experts still don't know what multi or polish club is. I get annoyed then, but still give explanations, what else could I do

Many polish players also play SA or other system, and then they do not alert.
They open 1♣ , no alert, I look at their profile, says sa or pclub, I ask, I get rude comments (Are you stupid?)

Many bulgarians, chinese and indonesians play precision club, they do not alert.

I actually play some prepared defenses for precision 1 ♣, polish 1 ♣.

When one of these players play against me and open 1 club or 1 diamond, i am not stupid or a weak player, I just want to know what the hell 1 club means so i can use the prepared defense if need be.

Sometimes the director comes and someone is booted, either the jerk who does not alert or me when the opponent jerk tells the director I am stalling-- just as well i am booted because by then i am rather pissed off.

My impression is that players like these are not ignorant, they are just unethical and mean.

[matmat]

heh.

this complaint is very much akin to what I see a lot of on bbo.

Quote

1NT-[2 pineapple]

"what's 2 pineapple?"

"cappeletti."

It's just a method for people to show off their superior knowledge of conventions.

"oh, you don't know jefferson over strong club? what? do you live in a cave? what sort of moron are you?"

Almost everyone who plays in north america will know what capp is; that might not be the case for other places, and having an american "expert" explain the bid this way is insufficient.

same goes for smolen, kokish, drury, bart, and a variety of other calls and conventions where the name is being substituted for the meaning.

if you want to fix this issue, you have to educate beginners that the correct explanation involves a description of the implied card holding, not the name of some guy who may (or may not) have first used it.


(that is one side of the coin)

The other side is that if you are a player who is striving to get better at this game and to be competitive in a good field, you really should try to learn as many conventions and treatments as you may encounter at the table. You don't have to be fluent in them, you don't have to use them yourself, but you need to know enough about them to ask an intelligent and useful question of the opponents or the director. "does your multi have strong option?" "is this the only way you show less-than-opening hand with a 6 card major?" etc.


There's also the edge of the coin. Online you have a giant sloshing mess of bad players who have very little knowledge of the game beyond the kitchen table. They have no desire to play in tournaments, their only aim on bbo (or other sites) is to pass the time clicking away on cards (not accepting claims) and winning giant amounts of online imps to prove to their isolated circle of friends that they're bridge gods. These people will inject all sorts of random conventions into their card/system. They will abuse/misuse these, mostly as they have no idea about what they are and could not explain them to you regardless of whether they have good intentions or not.

[Zelandakh]

I much prefer 1NT - (2pineapple)
"What's 2pineapple?"
"Pottage."

One should remember that Capp is not even the name used in other parts of the world.

[matmat]

 Zelandakh, on 2011-June-14, 05:07, said:

I much prefer 1NT - (2pineapple)
"What's 2pineapple?"
"Pottage."

One should remember that Capp is not even the name used in other parts of the world.

Actually, it's Hamilton.

[manudude03]

It's Pottage too (or as I call it occasionally, Reverse Multi Landy, or crappelletti- but lets not go there). Anyway, I can say for myself that I hardly name the convention, I know it's a common occurrence on BBO. I had an experience not so long ago where I was playing with my regular partner against randoms, and the opps started complaining that I was overly disclosing: The auction was 1NT-(2H)-2NT which I alerted as lebensohl- forces 3C, (3H)-P-(P)-3S which I alert as natural invitational. LHO complained about me alerting lol. He then bid 4H and alerted that as showing 5 hearts .

Attitudes like that is probably half the reason people don't alert when they should.

[helene_t]

In the acol club most people don't alert anything, when I ask why it is either because they don't know how to click the alert button, or because they forget that they have to alert their own calls on bbo. Dunno if it is the same in the main room when people fail to alert. But in general I think people in tourneys are quite good at alerting. Random opps in the main room often have no agreements beyond what has already been said in table chat so it makes some sense not to alert anything. OK, in theory it could be that they agree to play (say) wj2005 and they both know that multi is part of that while opps might not know. So of course it ought to be alerted. But it isn't a big issue.

[babalu1997]

 manudude03, on 2011-June-14, 17:03, said:

It's Pottage too (or as I call it occasionally, Reverse Multi Landy, or crappelletti- but lets not go there). Anyway, I can say for myself that I hardly name the convention, I know it's a common occurrence on BBO. I had an experience not so long ago where I was playing with my regular partner against randoms, and the opps started complaining that I was overly disclosing: The auction was 1NT-(2H)-2NT which I alerted as lebensohl- forces 3C, (3H)-P-(P)-3S which I alert as natural invitational. LHO complained about me alerting lol. He then bid 4H and alerted that as showing 5 hearts .

Attitudes like that is probably half the reason people don't alert when they should.

Capp=Reverse multi landy?

Damn, i feel smart now.