[frank0]

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and

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Is the meaning of 2♠ same or different in the above two auctions?

[JLOGIC]

For me the first one shows extra values and the 2nd one just shows 4 spades. I might be a minority now though!

[NickRW]

JLOGIC, on 2011-May-30, 02:49, said:

For me the first one shows extra values and the 2nd one just shows 4 spades. I might be a minority now though!

Make it a minority with at least 2 in it then.

[whereagles]

3 of a perfect pair.

[SimonFa]

JLOGIC, on 2011-May-30, 02:49, said:

For me the first one shows extra values and the 2nd one just shows 4 spades. I might be a minority now though!

Why does the first one show extra values? I understood that bidding something else, aka arguing after take out, showed extra values?

Thanks in advance,

Simon

[JLOGIC]

Just my opinion but preempting them by raising with 2S, while useful, is not worth screwing up our ranges so much. We are already dealing with very wide ranges, and if 2S doesn't show extras, and a cuebid does not promise a fit, that leaves you forcing to the 3 level quite often with undesirable hands to do so. I don't think it's worth it.

That said, I think being able to compete to 2S with a fit and a minimum is definitely worth the problems you cause yourself, since it's very important, and if you don't do it there's no assurance partner will balance, you might be 32 in the majors or even 33 afterall, and even if he does balance he might bid 3C or something if he has 5 of those which would not be good. So I'd definitely want to be able to bid 2S on a 4144 10 count in the second auction just because I can't risk 2H getting passed out imo.

[jmcw]

Count me in with the minority

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

2S in the first auction showes add. values.

2S in the 2nd auction ist just comp.

Or in short - I am joining the minority as well, which is rare,
since I am usuall in a minority.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[manudude03]

Count me in the minority group too. First shows extras, second is competitive.

[gwnn]

When JLOGIC joins a minority, it magically ceases to be a minority any longer.

[pooltuna]

While I sympathize with the 2♠ call in competition showing 4 with a min, I still prefer it show xtras because otherwise it lets the opps screw with your good hands and it feels like I am bidding my values twice with a min. Surely partner, who knows you have 3, can pick up the slack with the appropriate 1♠ call hand.

[aguahombre]

There is a third case:

(1m) X (1H) 1S
(2H) 2S....where clearly, IMO 2S should show nothing extra.

On the given 2nd case, where lefty has done nothing and opener has rebid, I think it is a much closer choice --but pard and I had better decide before it happens again. This one has danger that opener is out of line and/or partner has (say) 3-5 in the majors with a few values and we belong nowhere.

[pooltuna]

aguahombre, on 2011-May-30, 07:01, said:

There is a third case:

(1m) X (1H) 1S
(2H) 2S....where clearly, IMO 2S should show nothing extra.

On the given 2nd case, where lefty has done nothing and opener has rebid, I think it is a much closer choice --but pard and I had better decide before it happens again. This one has danger that opener is out of line and/or partner has (say) 3-5 in the majors with a few values and we belong nowhere.

Yes this is different partner has shown values by making a call when he could have passed

[karlson]

I'll speak up for the "majority". I like the style where the first one doesn't promise more than a minimum old-school takeout double with 4 spades. Something like AQxx x Axxx Kxxx would be plenty. Of course that's a solid king (if not ace) more than a modern minimum takeout double, so maybe we don't actually disagree.

The biggest upside is partner not having to jump around with 9-10 points and 4 iffy spades. It also makes it more difficult for them to balance (and if they do we'll always take the push to 2s anyway).

If you allow weaker hands to bid 2s uncontested, I think you have to allow the cuebid to have 4 spades. This doesn't strike me as unworkable.