[AL78]

gwnn, on 2009-February-02, 07:32, said:

what is

1♥-1♠
2♣-4♣?

Of course gerber is the best meaning but maybe the event banned it

Club support, slam interest.

[Lovera]

AL78, on 2022-June-05, 06:00, said:

Club support, slam interest.

Yes, but that's not what I mean. You need to be able to resolve the situation by giving information to partners within the 3NT level. Why do I say that the 4th suit can be above the opener's two suits (while in the topic it is intermediate)? To expand its use.

[Lovera]

Another consideration on the proposed YouTube video which presents the bidding of the opener's first suit as the "default" one (even if others are regulated differently) in addition to providing support to the respondent's first suit even with a delayed bid (an honor second high - also Qx?).

[Lovera]

Since I believe that there is no news in this regard, I expose my thoughts about a better use of the "raise" to the 4.th suit by partner. Consider that you have a very unbalanced and strong hand in 3 suits with a void in the first suit bidded by the partner and that because of this you have devalued the hand placing itself in the first range from the second (= 16 / +). It is in this situation where strength is important to make known that I think i.e. you have a 0-3-5-5 or a 0-3-6-4. The points are so distributed that it also allows you to have control also in the 4th suit but the hand is unsuitable for NT play. The raise would represent this situation and at level 2 (= intermediate i.e. ♦ is FSF) it allows to signal both a 6-4 with the jump bid at level 3 of the first suit (= strong sixth) otherwise you have a strong 5-5 since there is no jump bid. At level 3 the latter must be included in the privileged one (to allow support with only two cards) of the sixth suit of the 6-4 when the 4.th suit is upper the opener ones.

[bluenikki]

Winstonm, on 2009-February-01, 11:30, said:

1H-1S
2C-2D

---

Here is the premise: if 4th suit forcing is defined as artificial, it follows that the best use of continuations should not attempt to establish a fit with the 4th suit, i.e., a raise of that suit does not need to show 4-card length and in fact may be better used than 4-card length.

I would argue that conventional wisdom should say that the best response with the above hand is 3D.

I bet someone here may well disagree.

Of course FSF occurs when intending to show length in one of the previous suits, but when a direct bid would show the wrong strength.

But the most common case is when responder would have bid notrump except for no stopper in the fourth suit.

Of course, opener will bid some number of notrump with a full stopper.

But what if, as here, they have a partial stopper? As best I can remember, the classic method 45 years ago was to raise the fourth suit.

If there is NO way for opener to show a partial stopper, what is responder to do? FSF will then be no help. Are they supposed to blast 3NT with Qx at their second turn?

[Stephen Tu]

bluenikki, on 2022-June-05, 12:35, said:

If there is NO way for opener to show a partial stopper, what is responder to do? FSF will then be no help. Are they supposed to blast 3NT with Qx at their second turn?

One could bid 4th suit again to ask a for a partial stopper, or bid something else, then NT by the person who made the default rebid and declined to bid NT earlier should suggest partial stopper only

[blackshoe]

With Winston's opening hand and the auction given, the meanings of the possible bids, as I see it, are:

2♥: shows a sixth heart.
2♠: shows three spades.
2NT: shows a diamond stopper.
3♣: shows a fifth club.
3♦: shows four diamonds (in which case opener should be 0544).

None of these fit, but it seems to me 3♦ is the least lie.

[Lovera]

blackshoe, on 2022-June-07, 09:15, said:

With Winston's opening hand and the auction given, the meanings of the possible bids, as I see it, are:

2♥: shows a sixth heart.
2♠: shows three spades.
2NT: shows a diamond stopper.
3♣: shows a fifth club.
3♦: shows four diamonds (in which case opener should be 0544).

None of these fit, but it seems to me 3♦ is the least lie.

I'm not so sure it's "the slightest lie" (= 3 ♦) maybe because you don't consider the possibility of the default answer (= opener's first suit) that i.e. in addition to the delayed answers it would allow to have a refined and extensive use to show the hand more correctly to the partner (with a little additional complexity in bidding).

[Gilithin]

blackshoe, on 2022-June-07, 09:15, said:

2♥: shows a sixth heart.

For the reasons Justin laid out 13 years ago, forcing 2♥ to promise a 6th heart is just hopelessly inefficient.

[AL78]

blackshoe, on 2022-June-07, 09:15, said:

With Winston's opening hand and the auction given, the meanings of the possible bids, as I see it, are:

2♥: shows a sixth heart.
2♠: shows three spades.
2NT: shows a diamond stopper.
3♣: shows a fifth club.
3♦: shows four diamonds (in which case opener should be 0544).

None of these fit, but it seems to me 3♦ is the least lie.

I think there has to be some way of saying "I have nothing extra to show" such as holding a 1534 or 2524 minimum without a diamond stop. I play 2♥ as could be this hand.

[bluenikki]

AL78, on 2022-June-08, 02:39, said:

I think there has to be some way of saying "I have nothing extra to show" such as holding a 1534 or 2524 minimum without a diamond stop. I play 2♥ as could be this hand.

The common use of "default" for such a bid is misleading. A more correct description is "waiting bid giving no further information about the suit bid."

[mycroft]

An even less helpful description than "default", that. It says nothing about what you have - and it says nothing about what you don't have. It doesn't say anything about whether there are other options, the way "default" at least implies, and it either discourages the questions that find this out (convenient, that) or it triggers them (so you get to do the "here's what it denies" as a followup, making the first description a waste of time, or this pair doesn't actually understand their full disclosure requirements, and think that your explanation is sufficient, and that also causes issues.)

It gives a *huge* amount of information - I agree, not about the suit bid; but conveniently for the bidding side, the opponents might not notice. For your system notes, fine. For the table, bad.

"Catchall, denies any other call, may not have extra length". Still not great, but at least points out what it *denies*. Which I'm sure the bidding side uses in their decisions.

[Lovera]

What I can add is that one can reason whether to consider only the 6-4-3-0 hands or also the 6-4-2-1 for the jump response while maintaining the additional control in the suit 3.th (= the suit of the FSF) or in that of the partner no more than 2.nd (Kx at least) with 16-17 points and bearing in mind that such bids (also including 5-5) are reserved (raising or with the jump) to describe opener's two suits and their strength .

[Lovera]

Previously I had thought of using the FSF to indicate the presence of a Q in minor suits by associating the answer to the information on the opener's two suits (for the raise also in a delayed way) but I was not satisfied because I felt that the convention was brought to be more artificial. So I too (like Winstonm) think the 5-4-4-0 response was limited as well as rare. Later I changed to prefer the solution I indicated regarding the extension to 6-4 and / or 5-5 "strong" with the addition that in one of the other two suits there is a control and no more than a loser in the other (distributions, however, close to 5-4-4-0 constituting a small change but more frequent in use).