[gnasher]

Edmunte1, on Dec 18 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

Cons:
-offers more informations to opponent than regular NT;

Is this, in fact, true?

Playing Stayman, when responder has four spades and opener has four hearts, the opponents know about both.

Playing Puppet Stayman, in a style where 1NT-2C-2D merely denies a 5-card major, they know about responder's spade suit but they don't know about opener's heart suit.

[gwnn]

because the follow-ups get very convoluted especially if you don't want to miss any 8 card fits in a major.

[CSGibson]

gnasher, on Dec 18 2008, 04:21 PM, said:

Edmunte1, on Dec 18 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

Cons:
-offers more  informations to opponent than regular NT;

Is this, in fact, true?

Playing Stayman, when responder has four spades and opener has four hearts, the opponents know about both.

Playing Puppet Stayman, in a style where 1NT-2C-2D merely denies a 5-card major, they know about responder's spade suit but they don't know about opener's heart suit.

Yes, but the frequency of the use of stayman increases when you are trying to uncover 5-3 fits, so more information is ultimately given.

[Edmunte1]

gnasher, on Dec 18 2008, 06:21 PM, said:

Edmunte1, on Dec 18 2008, 10:48 PM, said:

Cons:
-offers more  informations to opponent than regular NT;

Is this, in fact, true?

Playing Stayman, when responder has four spades and opener has four hearts, the opponents know about both.

Playing Puppet Stayman, in a style where 1NT-2C-2D merely denies a 5-card major, they know about responder's spade suit but they don't know about opener's heart suit.

What about
normal: 1nt-2c-2d-3nt vs.
puppet: 1nt-2c-2d-2h/s-3nt

[gnasher]

Edmunte1, on Dec 19 2008, 11:20 AM, said:

What about
normal: 1nt-2c-2d-3nt vs.
puppet: 1nt-2c-2d-2h/s-3nt

Indeed. Playing normal Stayman, they know that opener has no 4-card major; playing puppet they know only that opener doesn't have four of a specified major.

[y66]

I don't play enough to justify the complexity.

Of possible interest: Danny Kleinman's two cents on this topic.

[uday]

....I'd rather miss the 5-3 fit to increase the volatility of the session

[TimG]

uday, on Dec 19 2008, 10:12 AM, said:

....I'd rather miss the 5-3 fit to increase the volatility of the session

Just add a fert or two to your arsenal...

[blackshoe]

... none of my partners are willing to learn it.

[32519]

kenrexford, on 2008-December-18, 07:40, said:

... I play the obviously superior 3♣ as Muppet or Batchelder Puppet.

Kindly explain these two methods to me as I am not familiar with them.

[32519]

... I play Stuppet

[Cyberyeti]

I play a weak no trump and need my garbage stayman.

[wanoff]

1.To check for 5M does not require much space so logical to use 3♣ for this. You won't be giving any more info away than using 2♣.
2.Space is required to show the 'n' types of hand behind a 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠ relay.
3.Playing weak nt I'll keep 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ as garbage.

[kenrexford]

32519, on 2012-July-14, 01:40, said:

Kindly explain these two methods to me as I am not familiar with them.

Muppet is simple. You play regular old Puppet, but you shoft the meanings of 3♥ and 3NT, such that 3NT shows five hearts and 3♥ denies a 4-card or longer minor. That way, Responder with 5♠/4♥ has a solution -- he bids 3♣ "Puppet" and then if Opener bidfs 3♥ (no 5-card or 4-card major) bids 3♠ to show a fifth spade.

"Batchelder" is a different name for a system that already existed. 3♣ asks for major length. With 4-4, Opener bids 3NT (and then re-0transfers on). With 5 spades, he bids 3♠. With 4-5 hearts, he bids 3♥, with Responder bidding 3♠ to ask if 5. With 2-4 spades and 2-3 hearts, Opener rebids 3♦; 3♥ then asks for spade length (3♠ with 3, 3NT with 2, or any other with 4); 3♠ instead asks for heart length (3NT with 2, other with 3). Two problem hands are 5H/4S, but with that transfer and bid 3♠. Other is 5♠, 3♥, with which you transfer to spades, expecting Opener to "coirrect" to 3NT if 2♠/5♥. That approach allows ANY major fit to be found, even if Responder is 3-5 or 5-3 in the majors.

[dake50]

because i DO have a rebid with 16-17 with a 5xM bal hand.

[Mbodell]

kenrexford, on 2012-July-16, 07:24, said:

Muppet is simple. You play regular old Puppet, but you shoft the meanings of 3♥ and 3NT, such that 3NT shows five hearts and 3♥ denies a 4-card or longer minor. That way, Responder with 5♠/4♥ has a solution -- he bids 3♣ "Puppet" and then if Opener bidfs 3♥ (no 5-card or 4-card major) bids 3♠ to show a fifth spade.

Shouldn't you invert the 3♠/3nt meanings over 2nt-3♣-3♥. I'd think 3♠ should mean bid 3nt and 3nt should show 5♠. And 2nt-3nt shows 5♥-4♠ so now you have nearly all your major suit contracts found and right sided (I guess you still miss 5-3 spade fits when opener has 5 hearts and responder only 2). At the cost of memory and artificial bids to be X or not.

[kenrexford]

Yes, many do that. Issue if slammish can be resolved better if Nat., tho.

[manudude03]

Mbodell, on 2012-July-16, 21:07, said:

Shouldn't you invert the 3♠/3nt meanings over 2nt-3♣-3♥. I'd think 3♠ should mean bid 3nt and 3nt should show 5♠. And 2nt-3nt shows 5♥-4♠ so now you have nearly all your major suit contracts found and right sided (I guess you still miss 5-3 spade fits when opener has 5 hearts and responder only 2).

Why is responder doing puppet/muppet/whatever with 52xy? Why not just transfer?

[advanced]

gnasher, on 2008-December-18, 04:41, said:

... I play Heeman.

one of the very few in the world I have thought about adding it to my sys, but never did

[Phil]

...because I do not know any better. This applies to none of my partners fortunately.