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4S X

#1 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2008-June-03, 18:24

Scoring: IMP

(4♠)-p-(p)-X
all pass


10 tricks, 8 spades and ♥AK. 5 of a minor is cold, if they don't fint the heart ruff, and they won't since hearts are Axxx to Kx.

Bad luck or...?

NS are strong players. Any difference if south is generally known as a tight preemptor or as a loose preemptor?
Michael Askgaard
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#2 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-June-03, 18:47

If I was both of the E W players I would have passed it out. I guess that's an example of the SJ Simon 'best result possible' vs 'best possible result' type of thing. I wouldn't find my game but at least they wouldn't be doubled.
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#3 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2008-June-03, 18:59

Agree with West's initial pass over 4♠.
East's double seems to me to be mandatory.

West's final pass? I like a 4NT bid, but I admit I might be influenced by knowing the result.
I expect East to hold a singleton spade for the double, we have 3 working cards and fits in some of partner's suits. If partner is unusually weak, they might make 4♠. If partner is unusually strong, we might make slam (but OK, I don't expect to bid a slam.)

But I could certainly see myself passing 4♠X as West, and going -790 also.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#4 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-June-03, 20:26

I hate the idea of pulling with the west hand, I think passing is definitely percentage.

As far as east's X, I have really mixed feelings. It just feels wrong to me to X with so little defense...but people keep telling me you have to X with this...... I dunno, I am not convinced. It's definitely good when partner pulls but it seems like they make too often, possibly with an overtrick, when he passes.
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#5 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-June-03, 22:18

jdonn, on Jun 3 2008, 04:47 PM, said:

If I was both of the E W players I would have passed it out. I guess that's an example of the SJ Simon 'best result possible' vs 'best possible result' type of thing. I wouldn't find my game but at least they wouldn't be doubled.

Same here. I suppose those that like double on the east hand pull more 4 level doubles than the forums crowd.
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#6 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-June-03, 23:02

This would have been passed out had partner and i been playing.
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#7 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2008-June-04, 03:40

The double was cards showing I guess, at least optional. So it was an overbid.
Kind Regards

Roland

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#8 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-June-04, 03:44

I would pass WTP on both of these hands, and if East doubled, I think pulling with the West hand is completely nuts.
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#9 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2008-June-04, 15:45

rogerclee, on Jun 4 2008, 04:44 AM, said:

I would pass WTP on both of these hands, and if East doubled, I think pulling with the West hand is completely nuts.

I think that "passing wtp" in the last seat is definitely an underbid. :P

Well, I'm not convinced if it's right to double or not. One could argue that paying out 790 instead of 620 is at worst 5 imps but often less. In our match, south opened 1♠ with his AKJxxxxx, Kx, x, Jx at the other table, and EW got to 5♦ easily.
Sure there could be overtricks and redoubles, but...

I had the west hand and felt I had to pass. Had I known that south preempts like my great great grand dad used to do, I might have considered pulling - playing my partner for something like the hand he had.
Michael Askgaard
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#10 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2008-June-04, 15:51

Perhaps South doesn't normally preempt like your great great granddad used to, but he felt that the hand was a 4♠ call. I can't really fault him for that. There is something to be said for opening AKJxxxxx and a side K with a vulnerable 4 bid.
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#11 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-June-04, 15:55

MFA, on Jun 4 2008, 04:45 PM, said:

I had the west hand and felt I had to pass.

Yes, for sure.
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#12 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2008-June-04, 18:26

Doesn't this depend on what the double means?

If double is just cards, and could be a flat 16 count with 3 spades, then West has a WTP pass, and East's double is doubtful.

If double is takeout (my preferred method, flat 16s with 3 spades have to pass out 4♠ here), then East's double is clearcut, and West has a problem. Maybe West still has a pass, but at the very least he no longer has a WTP pass.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#13 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-June-05, 01:41

655321, on Jun 5 2008, 01:26 AM, said:

If double is takeout (my preferred method, flat 16s with 3 spades have to pass out 4♠ here), then East's double is clearcut, and West has a problem. Maybe West still has a pass, but at the very least he no longer has a WTP pass.

That's my preferred style too, but I think West should still pass even if the double is takeout. He has enough high cards to expect to beat 4♠, and five of a suit might have no play.

It's dangerous to double on a hand like East's, with a void and not much defence. This is very committal, but I think East should bid 4NT.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#14 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-June-05, 01:59

gnasher, on Jun 5 2008, 02:41 AM, said:

It's dangerous to double on a hand like East's, with a void and not much defence. This is very committal, but I think East should bid 4NT.

4-3 fits doubled at the five level with no assurance of even half the deck are dangerous too........
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#15 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2008-June-05, 03:24

The_Hog, on Jun 4 2008, 06:02 AM, said:

This would have been passed out had partner and i been playing.

Same for me !

And I also pass the X with west hand...
Alain
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#16 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2008-June-06, 03:19

I think the X is a terrible overbid. passing the X is clear cut
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
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